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Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2
From the previous posts, I am now armed with Pimientito's assertion that, to be flamenco, something under consideration "has to be culturally accepted as flamenco." Pimientito put some effort into running through some of Florian's (and maybe some others') criteria for evaluating whether things are flamenco, and it is appreciated. He boiled it all down to the above quote. I also have Florian's final dictum: something is flamenco if it is a flamenco palo and follows the structure of the palo. Florian goes on: "The rest is down to individual opinions."
Now returning to Saura's Flamenco, we have the judgements of Ailsa, Pimientito, and Florian that it is all flamenco. Ricardo identified Cortes' Farruca, Morente's Siguiriyas, and PdL's Tangos as "modern" flamenco, and, for himself, ruled out the Villancicos and the Rumba as flamenco (correct me here if I'm wrong, Ricardo).
I've finished looking at the DVD again. Right away I easily judge the opening Bulerias, the Martinetes (cante), the Fandangos de Huelva, all 3 Soleares, the Petenera, the Alegrias with Chano Lobato and Rancapino, and the closing Bulerias with Potito, et al, to be flamenco.
For the rest, I will start by following Ricardo's lead and add the Guajira to his list (in which I concur) of not-flamenco. The Sanlucar et al Alegrias is not an alegrias. I enjoyed it, whatever it was, as I enjoyed every selection, but I did not identify it as flamenco, using Florian's "palo test". Ditto for the Mario Maya danced Martinete--very nice sort of danced "something". The Siguiriyas would be incomprehensible to Manuel Torres or Terremoto, in my opinion, as a siguiriyas. I think it of it as a siguiriyas put through some sort of maze; a kind of parallel flamenco. Lole & Manuel's selection was a very pleasant art song of some kind, but not flamenco. Finally, the two tangos are flamenco, but just barely. PdL's comes close to being generic "Latin easy listening". I repeat, I enjoyed all of the selections. Let me also be clear that I am not smart enough to know what is good or bad in any of the arts; I only know what I like-- "The rest is down to individual opinions."
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
quote:
ORIGINAL: runner
For the rest, I will start by following Ricardo's lead and add the Guajira to his list (in which I concur) of not-flamenco. The Sanlucar et al Alegrias is not an alegrias. I enjoyed it, whatever it was, as I enjoyed every selection, but I did not identify it as flamenco, using Florian's "palo test". Ditto for the Mario Maya danced Martinete--very nice sort of danced "something". The Siguiriyas would be incomprehensible to Manuel Torres or Terremoto, in my opinion, as a siguiriyas. I think it of it as a siguiriyas put through some sort of maze; a kind of parallel flamenco. Lole & Manuel's selection was a very pleasant art song of some kind, but not flamenco. Finally, the two tangos are flamenco, but just barely. PdL's comes close to being generic "Latin easy listening". I repeat, I enjoyed all of the selections. Let me also be clear that I am not smart enough to know what is good or bad in any of the arts; I only know what I like-- "The rest is down to individual opinions."
runner
You are of course entitled to your opinion. But the majority of aficionados have no problem with songs that are "ida y vuelta" to be part of flamenco. Of course no one thinks of it as "cante jondo". Siguiriyas is supposed to be "cante jondo" and as you claim, Morente's version is pretty "out there". But mario maya was just doing the compas, and that in itself, to me, was very flamenco. But it was of course "theatrical", which can be a turn off I know.
But along with ida y vuelta, and fandango coplas, you have "cuple", which is an other type of flamenco song, not really "cante jondo" IMO. And that was Lole y Manuel, cuple por bulerias. Still in the bounds of "flamenco". Manolo Sanlucar's piece was rather quick for alegrias,, and the estribillo,, the sung chorus, was clearly BULERIAS DE CADIZ, an extremely flamenco form. Perhaps if he labled his solo that, it would get more acceptance. Thing is, when you accompany dance, you realize exactly why Alegrias and Bulerias de Cadiz are related, and this type of guitar playing fits right in with both. So while it is very modern, it is still a very "flamenco" interpretation. The thing is some nerds don't accept guitar solo, no matter what, as "flamenco". No cante, no flamenco. But I am not that way for sure.
And lastly, the other tangos you did not mention, but hinted at just barely scrapping by, sorry man, you can't get much more "gitana flamenca" then that.
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to Ricardo)
I’m curious as to whether Sanlucar himself has ever labeled that piece either way. He doesn’t list any of the song-forms on Tauromagia, and I would assume that the “alegrias” label applied to it in the Saura film came after the fact. I wonder if he has specifically called it one thing or the other, elsewhere. Have people been arguing about what that piece of music is for the past twenty years, or just since the film came out? Seems like it comes up a lot, even now.
Whatever it is, I love it. I think it’s my favorite part of the Saura film, and second only to Oracion on Tauromagia. And as a general rule I’m really not all that into that sort of “chorus” singing in flamenco, but still, I love everything about that track.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to srshea)
quote:
ORIGINAL: srshea
I’m curious as to whether Sanlucar himself has ever labeled that piece either way. He doesn’t list any of the song-forms on Tauromagia, and I would assume that the “alegrias” label applied to it in the Saura film came after the fact. I wonder if he has specifically called it one thing or the other, elsewhere. Have people been arguing about what that piece of music is for the past twenty years, or just since the film came out? Seems like it comes up a lot, even now.
Whatever it is, I love it. I think it’s my favorite part of the Saura film, and second only to Oracion on Tauromagia. And as a general rule I’m really not all that into that sort of “chorus” singing in flamenco, but still, I love everything about that track.
If I remember from the movie credits, Isidro Sanlucar, if not manolo himself, was listed as "musical director". So you would think they would use the label they wanted.
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
Thanks to Jacinto and Ricardo for their replies. Ricardo, in a previous post, you noted that you regarded rumbas as outside (of) mainstream flamenco, along with villancicos and sevillanas. Do you believe them to be flamenco? Rumbas are certainly performed far more frequently than guajiras, and have roughly the same pedigree. I feel that, if rumbas are out, then guajiras are out also. Don Pohren ruled them all in, but, in my opinion, they were never performed with nearly the same frequency as what all would consider "mainstream" flamenco, and so could be safely regarded as so far out on the frontiers of flamenco as to be over the line. On that same subject, there are/were so many totally obscure palos (just look at Pohren's list) recognized, yet only about, say, 15 are/were ever performed with any regularity, that the definition of outside mainstream flamenco could be expanded to include those virtually extinct palos as well.
Regarding the tangos--the examples on the DVD have "evolved" so much that their connection with tientos is no longer evident. The Lole y Manuel selection could have been sung in any other language (Norwegian, maybe) and been accepted as a pleasant art song in whatever European culture, surely. I doubt whether any of our posters would recognize it as flamenco, if they heard it in some other language.
Again, though, I thank you for your thoughtful input. Always appreciated!
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to Ricardo)
Yep, I just popped the disc in the player and I. Sanlucar is the musical director, so it's his damn fault! I also checked the bonus feature where each scene is described in detail. The text is almost impossible to read on my copy, but the track is labeled "Alegrias (Variations on Guitar)", so, I guess that's probably a safer way to go. Can't really argue with "variations on guitar"!
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
quote:
ORIGINAL: runner
Thanks to Jacinto and Ricardo for their replies. Ricardo, in a previous post, you noted that you regarded rumbas as outside (of) mainstream flamenco, along with villancicos and sevillanas. Do you believe them to be flamenco? Rumbas are certainly performed far more frequently than guajiras, and have roughly the same pedigree. I feel that, if rumbas are out, then guajiras are out also. Don Pohren ruled them all in, but, in my opinion, they were never performed with nearly the same frequency as what all would consider "mainstream" flamenco, and so could be safely regarded as so far out on the frontiers of flamenco as to be over the line. On that same subject, there are/were so many totally obscure palos (just look at Pohren's list) recognized, yet only about, say, 15 are/were ever performed with any regularity, that the definition of outside mainstream flamenco could be expanded to include those virually extinct palos as well.
Regarding the tangos--the examples on the DVD have "evolved" so much that their connection with tientos is no longer evident. The Lole y Manuel selection could have been sung in any other language (Norwegian, maybe) and been accepted as a pleasant art song in whatever European culture, surely. I doubt whether any of our posters would recognize it as flamenco, if they heard it in some other language.
Again, though, I thank you for your thoughtful input. Always appreciated!
runner
The reason i put Rumba as a possible "outside" was because you have entire genre that is RUMBA, having nada to do with flamenco. Same for Sevillanas. In fact SAURA himself dedicated a movie specifically to that genre. I was just suggesting you could do the same for RUMBA. Songs that are "ida y vuelta" such as Guajiras or Columbianas, well, you don't have entire cults that just do ida y vuelta. But if a flamenco interprets a rumba or Sevillana, I argue that it IS flamenco, because of their input. And even there can be details in compas that make you realize a difference of interpretation. For example a flamenco rumba could be strummed quite different than a Catalan rumba or perhaps the way they do it in Arles France. In any case, I admit the interpretors in Saura's movie, Manazanita and the HAbichuela family, are fine flamencos, and it was appropriate to include. Just saying it could have been part of it's own movie.
Villancicos are christmas songs.
The thing about lole y manuel being accepted as pleasant art song in an other language, I offer, NOT WITH THAT COMPAS and singing style.
A lastly about the evolution of the Tangos. Well, perhaps those chicas were influenced a lot by Camaron, but I am thinking le le le Cachito de pan is old stuff. And the the other letras too, very standard trad tangos melodies. Tientos did not evolve into tangos...far as I know.
Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to Ricardo)
Seems a lot of older, 60s-era sources used the term “rumba gitana”, which, so far as I know, people don’t really bother with any more, presumably ‘cause rumba’s been so fully assimilated into flamenco? When you refer to rumba as being a genre unto itself are you talking about flamenco rumba in particular or the whole worldwide, Cuban, African, spectrum in general, with the flamenco version being a subset of that?
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
quote:
Now returning to Saura's Flamenco,
You might be interested to consult Robin Totton's book "Song of the Outcasts". In it he does exactly what you are asking here; he goes through each number in the Saura film and describes where he feels it stands in the flamenco spectrum.
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
Ricardo, I will accept at face value your conjecture that any of our fellow posters would immediately recognize the Lole y Manuel piece, sung in Norwegian and encountered on some World Music site, as flamenco. If so, I am truly humbled.
Regarding tientos/tangos, Pohren states, "It is theorized by some that the tangos are a gaier descendent of the age-old tientos. Others state exactly the opposite: that the tientos are a more jondo descendent of the tangos--are, in fact, nothing other than a slow tango, innovated by the Gatidanan singer Enrique el Mellizo in the latter part of the last (19th) century. Still others claim that the tientos were a creation of Diego el Marrurro, a singer from Jerez de la Frontera......" Christof Jung, in Flamenco, in the chapter on cante, states that "Even though the old form of the tientos has vanished, we can still see that it evolved from the tango gitano." Whether or not tangos descended from tientos, or vice versa, even a casual hearing of the two (assuming one hears a non-mutated form of tangos) will confirm the connection. Singers will often finish tientos with tangos--good examples include Perrate de Utrera, with Pedro Peña accompanying, and María Soleá, with Paco del Gastor (CDs cited on request).
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
quote:
ORIGINAL: runner
Ricardo, I will accept at face value your conjecture that any of our fellow posters would immediately recognize the Lole y Manuel piece, sung in Norwegian and encountered on some World Music site, as flamenco. If so, I am truly humbled.
Regarding tientos/tangos, Pohren states, "It is theorized by some that the tangos are a gaier descendent of the age-old tientos. Others state exactly the opposite: that the tientos are a more jondo descendent of the tangos--are, in fact, nothing other than a slow tango, innovated by the Gatidanan singer Enrique el Mellizo in the latter part of the last (19th) century. Still others claim that the tientos were a creation of Diego el Marrurro, a singer from Jerez de la Frontera......" Christof Jung, in Flamenco, in the chapter on cante, states that "Even though the old form of the tientos has vanished, we can still see that it evolved from the tango gitano." Whether or not tangos descended from tientos, or vice versa, even a casual hearing of the two (assuming one hears a non-mutated form of tangos) will confirm the connection. Singers will often finish tientos with tangos--good examples include Perrate de Utrera, with Pedro Peña accompanying, and María Soleá, with Paco del Gastor (CDs cited on request).
runner
One guy says this, one guy says the opposite etc etc. In the end, the melody is what it is. Evolution happens person to person, dealing with music that is transmited orally. "Casual hearing confirms the connection"? How is that exactly? A casual hearing might show relation of Solea to Tientos too. Anyway, enjoy reading Pohren, Jung etc, but keep an open mind amigo, and open ears.
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
Ricardo, the point to focus on here is that neither I, nor this guy, nor that guy are the only people to hear the quite obvious similarity between tientos and tangos. The beauty of reading about flamenco's past is to learn more than we can know just by listening to the music. I've always found that the more I know about something's past, the better I understand and appreciate it. You can imagine how pleased I was to have flamencologists and other observers of flamenco confirm the relationship that I (and you and everybody else) can hear between tientos and tangos, if you've heard tientos and tangos as they have been sung and played for the past 80 or 100 years. Written accounts of flamenco make a point of that connection, when the palos are discussed. In your case, maybe it would be just as effective for you to listen to the two tientos/tangos I referenced, if you haven't the inclination to read. Open ears it is.
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
The reason i put Rumba as a possible "outside" was because you have entire genre that is RUMBA, having nada to do with flamenco. Same for Sevillanas. In fact SAURA himself dedicated a movie specifically to that genre. I was just suggesting you could do the same for RUMBA. Songs that are "ida y vuelta" such as Guajiras or Columbianas, well, you don't have entire cults that just do ida y vuelta. But if a flamenco interprets a rumba or Sevillana, I argue that it IS flamenco, because of their input. And even there can be details in compas that make you realize a difference of interpretation. For example a flamenco rumba could be strummed quite different than a Catalan rumba or perhaps the way they do it in Arles France. In any case, I admit the interpretors in Saura's movie, Manazanita and the HAbichuela family, are fine flamencos, and it was appropriate to include. Just saying it could have been part of it's own movie.
I was a having a conversation a while back with a music teacher (actually teaches at a college) about how there are still copies of tabs for vihuela (SP?) written by madrilenos of what were essentially rumbas.
Considering how long ago the vihuela was a popular instrument, it seems that rumba probably began outside of Andalucia and was adopted into the culture. It may be as flamenco as anything else that isn't canto jondo.
It would be funny if it weren't actually flamenco, because it's the palo that's most recognisable by non-flamencos/aficionados the world over. Or is that flamingo music? I have such a hard time keeping those two straight.
BTW: Anyone who has a prper copy of the Flamenco DVD can check the "Flamenco Fact Files" section on the DVD, but for those who don't, it discusses pretty much each song/chapter on the DVD.
Whenever there's something that some people might call questionable, the disc always has a diplomatic way of saying so, e.g. Chpt 5 - Farruca "the dance version... has recently undergone a series of enhancement, which Joaquin Cortes has pushed to the limits of possibility." It goes on to mention "school dancing" and the "unusual accompaniment".
Which, to me, reads like a very diplomatic way of saying "new newfangled, but something you should check out."
For Chpt 4, it makes no such comments, but it does call it a "magnificent mixture of innovation and tradition" right at the very end.
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to Exitao)
quote:
I was a having a conversation a while back with a music teacher (actually teaches at a college) about how there are still copies of tabs for vihuela (SP?) written by madrilenos of what were essentially rumbas.
Very interesting! Of the books of tab published for vihuela in the 16th century, none is from Madrid. Who were the composers you/he are referring to, and what did they call these pieces that "were essentially rumbas"?
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to Estevan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Estevan
quote:
I was a having a conversation a while back with a music teacher (actually teaches at a college) about how there are still copies of tabs for vihuela (SP?) written by madrilenos of what were essentially rumbas.
Very interesting! Of the books of tab published for vihuela in the 16th century, none is from Madrid. Who were the composers you/he are referring to, and what did they call these pieces that "were essentially rumbas"?
I don't really remember the names. I have a hard time with memory/recall of stuff like names where there wasn't a meaningful association with anything else.
It will be a little while before I can talk to him again, but I'm not making up excuses. Expect me to necropost in this thread in a month or two from now with the proper response.
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
This post will again reference writings about flamenco, so be prepared.
First, on the flamenconess of certain palos: Pohren, who knew a little something about flamenco, wrote that Antonio Mairena (who also knew a little about flamenco) "drew the line.....at cantes he considers non-flamenco in nature, such as the milongas, garrotin, and other cantes connected with the ópera flamenca movement." Pohren goes on to list the following as ópera flamenca-associated palos, in addition: tanguillos, guajiras, colombianas, zambras, badly-contaminated fandanguillos... I note that Mairena, who admittedly was obsessed with the idea of flamenco, especially gitano, purity, excluded all of the above palos from his Antologia del Cante Flamenco y Cante Gitano. Food for thought.
Second, Ricardo stated that "some nerds don't accept guitar solo, no matter what as "flamenco". No cante, no flamenco." I affirm that I am not one of those nerds (I'm another kind, and there's no predicting what nerds will or won't accept). But a case can be made that the primacy of el Cante is being slowly (or quickly) eroded from its central position in flamenco. More quotes: Pohren--"The Cante...holds the select position in flamenco. It is the preferred mode of expression (as opposed to the dance and the guitar) of nearly all Spanish aficionados. I emphasize "Spanish" aficionados as this is not true of non-Spaniards, who will generally prefer the guitar and dance to the singing due to the unfamiliar, oriental style which characterizes the Cante, and to their lack of understanding of the verses." Here is Christof Jung: "...the fact is that the origin and history of Andalusian gypsy flamenco is essentially the history of the cante and cataores. Neither guitarists nor dancers had any significant role in what at the time was the revolutionary development of flamenco. The cante was the key factor in shaping the various flamenco styles. In authentic Andalusian gypsy flamenco, the cante is and always has been the centerpiece, with dance and guitar taking their direction from it. The cantaor controls what happens, for flamenco is first and foremost a communication of feelings and meaning through song and not an audio-visual entertainment."
A very similar situation is Opera. The heart and soul and center of opera is singing. It is hard to think about opera as a musical form without its singing. "I'm going to the Opera." "Who's singing?" "Nobody." Now, there are many recordings of suites drawn from opera--Bizet's Carmen Suite, for example, and many recordings of overtures, etc. Lorin Maazel even did a fine CD of all of the music from Wagner's Ring, without the singing. I personally don't like opera (except some Puccini), but I do listen to the musical excerpts and extracts, and regard them as Opera, but I understand that I'm listening to Opera with its heart cut out. Flamenco dance and guitar without cante is..........expectation without fulfillment (IMHO).
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
Runner.
You are making an absurd comparision of Opera and Flamenco, which means that the rest of your arguments loose value.
I´m a complete flamenco with cante and guitar nerd, and a big fan of opera as well. I listen to Wagner with great pleasure. I strongly dislike flamenco opera
Opera without singning is NOT opera, whereas flamenco without singing can be flamenco. You may like it or not.
In my peña here in Huelva they are very conservative about what flamenco is and is not, but they clearly include and perform Guajiras, Columbianas, tanguillos and other "lighter" stuff which was part of the flamenco opera period. Because something was part of that period, doesnt mean its not flamenco. When it comes to Rumbas, they will say no, but not so categorically as they will say no to Sevillanas even though they sing, dance and play sevillanas. Is Verdiales de Malaga flamenco or folk music? IMO it depends on how its been performed and so you have many curious things in flamenco. The important thing is that Cante Jondo is still the base and it is alive and very respected
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Guys , this is a very interesting thread. Thanks and nice to see so many referenced quotes. I think one would have to regard Columbianas and Guajira as Flamenco simply because they have been generally accepted into the flamenco repertoire but their origins have been adaptations of a non- Andalucian and non gypsy folk music. If you get down to it a strict definition then Bulerias, Tangos, Tientos, Tanguillo, Alegrias, Solea, Zambra, Siguirillas, Granaina + media Granaina, (by convention) Rondeña, Taranta/s (by convention), Tonos, Martinete definately fall into the category "Flamenco"
Columbiana and Guajira do as well but only but convention and not strictly by definition. Here the acceptance as flamenco forms has been a cultural one.
One can safely say Sevillanas is Spanish folk and not flamenco even though it is sometimes incorporarted in to the flamenco repertoire.
This leaves us with a few grey ares including rumba, fandangos and its decendants like malagueña. The fandango is flamenco but again, i believe by convention and not strictly by definition. I have spent many long nights in pueblo bars where the campasinos sang fandangos all night but noone had the faintest idea how to sing a tango or solea etc.
quote:
Is Verdiales de Malaga flamenco or folk music?
I spent a long time in malaga and got to know the verdiales bands in the region quite well. They regularly compete every year in the verdiales competition in the village of Benalgabon. (which is a fantasic all night experience) Verdiales has 3 forms, one being specific only to the tiny village of comares. The other 2 forms are only played now in 6 villages around malaga. Its believed to be the oldest unchanged european musical form still alive today. Its definately not Flamenco but you can hear how fandangos must have decended from it. Its musical root is a rough violin phrase (the violin being roman) and compas kept on an instrument similar to a large tamborine. Nowadays the chords are acompanied on guitar. The coplas are sung by groups (usually of men) in a circle and have a similar chord structure to fandangos. There is a dance sometimes done with handkercheifs, sometimes with flags and this has a close relation with English morris dancing. It is thought that Morris dancing originates from the crusades and was first known as "moorish dancing" and this is the common link to verdialles
Ok, the point is that verdiales ( not flamenco) led to fandangos( could be flamenco) which led to malagueña (I would say is flamenco) granaina + media granaina (definately) and Taranta/s (definately).
PS. This is my opinion/theory based on first hand witness and I have no references to back this up.
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to Pimientito)
quote:
There is a dance sometimes done with handkercheifs, sometimes with flags and this has a close relation with English morris dancing. It is thought that Morris dancing originates from the crusades and was first known as "moorish dancing" and this is the common link to verdialles
Funny you should mention this Pimientito, Morris dancing has been on the news recently, with the sad fact that it seems to be dying out in England.
They can't get many young guys to join up with the local Morris clubs.
I wonder why?
Maybe they think it's uncool or something? I dunno?
Ah...these young people don't know how to have REAL fun anymore..
Notice how they still dance in the Traditional "Compás" of the time.
The first number is actually an instrumental version of "Polly Open the Bar Door", a popular ballad played by English minstrels in the Middle Ages, about a poor serving wench at an Inn who fell in love with an alcoholic Knight returning from the Crusades.
The song was eventually brought to America by the Pilgrim Fathers, where it was taken up and modified over the centuries to become the popular Music Hall song "Katie Bar the Door" and in the latter half of the 20th Century was rediscovered and re-written as a hit Hollywood comedy film, "Honey, I Shrunk The Kids".
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
Anders, please read my last paragraph again. The comparison with opera is not exact because singing is even more central to opera than it is to flamenco (now), but it is valid, and powerful. I again state that I am not one of those nerds who says "No cante, no flamenco"; I am the kind of nerd who says, "This guitar or dance without singing may be flamenco, but I'd really like the singing to begin, 'cos it's the heart of flamenco."
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
The song was eventually brought to America by the Pilgrim Fathers, where it was taken up and modified over the centuries to become the popular Music Hall song "Katie Bar the Door" and in the latter half of the 20th Century was rediscovered and re-written as a hit Hollywood comedy film, "Honey, I Shrunk The Kids".
Did anyone miss that!!! I'm almost tempted tocall you a sarcastic B@rstard
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
You can study, you can read books by famous writers, you can discuss etc. But you´ll never be able to put art and in this case flamenco in boxes. Art will always jump out of the boxes you create just like life itself.
Is Fandangos de Huelva flamenco?????
IMO, its definately a grey zone and it depends on who performs it and how its being performed.
If you go to some local peñas here, its flamenco. No doubt. Its being performed on such a high artistical level and its being cared about that I will call it flamenco. When Paco Toronjo sang, was it flamenco? absolutely and on a very high level as well.
If you go to some of the village fiestas and to the Virgen de Rocio, I wont call it flamenco. Its being played and singed in groups called coros rocieros, loosing totally what the individual fandango de Huelva has. Interestingly, in this version its being performed together with Sevillanas and Rumbas...... Both musical forms which work well in group singing and playing.
Also, you can ask locals here who are not really into flamenco. They dont like Cante Jondo, but they love their fandangos and they like cantes festivos (Bulerias, Tangos, alegrias etc) Some even say that they dont like flamenco but they like Fandangos de Huelva. So according to them, Fandangos de Huelva is not flamenco. This because they dont want to compare them to Cante Jondo which they dislike.
Also, if you analize the text, you´ll see that many of the FDH have very simple texts about the beauty of their village etc. (ex Calle Real de Alosno) Thats very typical folclore and you dont find it much in Cante Jondo or cante festivo.
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RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
When I as 16 (in 1988), I had just started studying Spanish. I was learning rather quickly (I've never done anything as well as I learnt Spanish), and my dad introduced me to one of his (female)friend's boyfriends who was from Spain. He was impressed with my palabritas and took an interest in ensuring my Spanish didn't get too tainted by the Latin Americans whom I was having a lot of contact with. So we talked often (and if it weren't for him I'd probably sound Nicaraguan or Columbian right now instead of a more non-specific international accent).
But I remember in 1988, I'd mentioned the Gypsy Kings and he snorted and told me that Gypsy Kings were not Flamenco and that if I ever wanted to hear real Flamenco and should I get a chance to travel to Spain I should travel to Huelvas, spelt h-u-e-l-v-a-s but the locals will pronounce it so that it sounds like 'Huervas'.
So it intrigues me that Anders should suggest that Fandangos de Huelvas is sometimes not called Flamenco.
I even recall browsing over some PDF of what appeared to be an academic thesis talking about Flamenco compas, essentially looking for the origins of the various compases, and it seemed to indicate that Fandangos de Huelva was somewhat important in the origins of Flamenco compas. Has anyone seen this? I was not intelligent/educated enough to grasp it at the time and I don't think I have it kicking around on any of the HDs currently in my PC.
As for the comment that the people who suggest that Flamenco with guitar and no cante is not true flamenco are nerds, I think that's unjust. If the statement that Flamenco with guitar and without cante or baile was not real flamenco, I would find it difficult to argue. It's an argument that's not without merit. However, as I doubt there is anyone left living who remembers a time of Flamenco without guitar, I think that it's not an argument that garners any sympathy. What I do like about the argument is that it has the potential to keep guitarists humble.
Guitarists who have never accompanied really need more humility and if you're a Flamenco guitarist claiming to be accomplished and in the know, but haven't accompanied, I think that your authority regarding the nature of Flamenco is suspect which is not to say I won't completely value everything they have to say about technique, it just renders the area of their expertise a little smaller.
I do find the idea of people who have never been to experience live Flamenco in its native habitat arguing over the nature of Flamenco to be rather suspect. If you'd never seen a tiger out of captivity, how could you dare claim to know its nature?
But please, go on with the intellectual exercise, I expect the infighting to amuse me.
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RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
Since even the oldest of us must rely upon the writings and studies of flamencologists to tell us about the early years of flamenco, I'd like to get Anders, in particular, and also Ricardo, to affirm the value of books and articles in helping us to better understand this flamenco that we all love so much. I sense sometimes that today's aficionados, most of whom are enthusiasts of the guitar, feel that they have all the knowledge they need from the CDs they've heard and the performances they've seen, and their mastery of their own technique, so that they know all they need (or want) to know about flamenco.
Exitao touches on something that we can only know about from reading--the fact that flamenco began as cante, a palo seco, and maybe some dancing. Then, we know, the guitar was added, then more formal and stylized dance. And Cante Andaluz began to be interwoven with Cante Gitano. And then various additional palos were added from abroad, or invented (by Chacón, for instance). Etc. This makes clear, to me, two things--the primacy of cante in flamenco, and also that the degree of "flamenconess" of any given performance or palo decreases the farther away we get from the old, ancestral core of flamenco. It's like the atmosphere getting thinner and thinner as we ascend the mountain. The hard question is----when does it stop being flamenco??
We can and certainly do differ as to where to draw lines, and it's both educational and enjoyable to discuss these things. Which is why I can't understand the tone of annoyance that sometimes colors these discussions. "It's All Flamenco! and that's all I have to say about it!" say some. Anders didn't like my Opera analogy, but he is more of a purist than I am--he says Opera without singing isn't Opera, period. I say that flamenco without singing may be flamenco (but I don't much care for it).
I'll finish up with two more analogies for Anders:
"I'm going to the Hootnanny. Joan Baez will be there, John Jacob Niles, Ed McCurdy, Pete Seeger and the Weavers." "Sounds great! I love the Weavers singing Wasn't that a Time!" "No singing. But Pete Seeger will play the banjo, and there'll be free-form square dancing!"
"I'm going to The Crossroads. Blues tonight. Robert Johnson, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Lightnin' Hopkins." "Great! I love Robert Johnson's classic bues--
I got a woman; she's got the meanest dog in town. I said, I got a woman; she's got the meanest dog in town. It's got teeth like Margaret Thatcher And it weighs five hundred pounds"
"Sorry, no singing, but BB King will do an interpretive dance."
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RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
quote:
ORIGINAL: runner
Since even the oldest of us must rely upon the writings and studies of flamencologists to tell us about the early years of flamenco, I'd like to get Anders, in particular, and also Ricardo, to affirm the value of books and articles in helping us to better understand this flamenco that we all love so much. I sense sometimes that today's aficionados, most of whom are enthusiasts of the guitar, feel that they have all the knowledge they need from the CDs they've heard and the performances they've seen, and their mastery of their own technique, so that they know all they need (or want) to know about flamenco.
runner
Hmm. I felt asked for an opinion and felt I gave it pretty clear. I can't in good conscience affirm that in general, the written stuff about music history is all that valuable. Based on what I read about music of the present day from "authorities". I find that most authors can't help but include too much theory, opinion, and conjecture and taste into their stuff, and I as the reader have to wade through it all just to get some basic facts. There are some exceptions of course, in particular when music is broken down in detail, rather than generalized. . Alain Faucher knows his stuff when it comes to "talking" about guitar history. In an other thread, we talk about Montoya's Rondena coming from Arcas. I read the same article i guess and was like, excuse me, WHERE IS THE SCORE!!!!. You can't just SAY that.
I recommend NORMAN KLIMAN's site but he used recordings as reference. The info is crystal clear to me. Rito y Geografia is good too, for the video of performances more than the handful of "authorities" that are interviewed. It is all grain of salt for me, but seeing the singer and guitarist is literally "black and white" for me.
About folks that think they "know it all" or can rest on their laurels, perhaps I am a weird case. I like to learn the music literally. Meaning yeah, instead of trying to listen to folks talk about a fandangos melody and categorize it, I try to actually sing it, note for note (in the shower of course!) Same with the guitar (ok, in public...). Then suddenly details pop out that are REALLY important, that the "talkers" obviously don't notice, because, well, they don't HEAR it, because they can't or don't do it. Again that is why I like Norman's work cause is there with the transcription and everything,crystal clear.
I would like to quote John Mclaughlin about learning music, which I think is appropriate for flamenco too. He was asked if he teachers or talks about the emotional aspects of playing in his teaching video. He says "no" meaning he address difficulties of technique, and executing music, rhythm, etc, because
"Every human being is full of emotions....I don'tneed to address these because they will come out in their own way. When you learn music, you are confronted with your inadequacies very quickly. Am I correct? We ALL become confronted with our incapacities and depth of our own ignorance for heaven's sakes. It's TERRIBLE! It is extremely depressing. At the same time, it is very encouraging because it gives us something to fight against. This is the real battle in music, is our own incapacity and lack of articulation in areas of our being that we are unable to articulate in a musical way. We are unable to say what we really feel....I have a theory that all musicians would be like serial killers if they weren't musicians."
So I feel, rather than read and speculate what flamenco MIGHT have been, simply learning it and doing it is the best education for ME. I know it might be different for different folks, and I got no problems with that. But the opinions I give out tend to be what I would tell myself.
RE: Flamenco--A Modest Proposal, Part 2 (in reply to runner)
I think its good to study and read books. I have done so myself. Read many of the Spanish ooks about flamenco and I did a 1 year university course on the university of Granada about Flamenco and mediterranean music.
But... They are books and flamenco is something very much alive. It changes all the time. I was only trying to give another version of what is going on now. I find it to be important to include what is going on right now. I dont really talk about CD´s either, I talk about what I hear with my ears out there in real world. I´m under no circumstances saying that what I know is right. That attitude is not interesting, I´m just trying to give a parrallel to what others have said.
To opera: opera without singing is not opera. Opera is drama or theater. The story is in the lyrics, so no singing, no drama, no opera.
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