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Folk vs. Flamenco (interesting blog post)
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Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
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 RE: Folk vs. Flamenco (interesting b... (in reply to Adam)
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JBA--I think he kind of gives the answer to your question in the post. Flamenco is not the kind of music he wants to play. In particular, Ottmar discusses a well-defined melody and a chorus, things which are less common in flamenco (and, I think, oft-attacked when they are there). Flamenco, real flamenco, offers certain things, many great things, but it cannot offer everything to everybody. That is why most of us listen to more than just flamenco, and even those well-educated in flamenco and who enjoy flamenco do not always make flamenco when they compose their own music.
Gato--I think it's a faulty concept to "defend" music. One should not have to defend the music they make--either people like it, or people do not like it. No rule of flamenco means that someone like Ottmar should be somehow barred from or have to defend making a certain type of music.
I suggested on the post that flamenco might be folk-y in a slightly different way--instead of the recognizable melody, there are the palos. I wonder if that is flamenco's own twist on folk!
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Date Aug. 18 2007 1:50:27
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gato
Posts: 322
Joined: Jun. 9 2007
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RE: Folk vs. Flamenco (interesting b... (in reply to Adam)
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I don't know, it's more like he's defending himself maybe, perhaps a bad choice of words, and I can see your point. By the way this is a great thread, and we will have to see what other people think. I know that everywhere I go it seems they are questioning Ottmar's music, and saying it is not flamenco. Perhaps that is where I get the word defense.
The flamenco goes back way before there were stages for it, or even the recording industry. I think that is where people tend to get confused. It wasn't royal, rich, and often times just made in the alleyways, and in private, etc. That's how I view it when I think about the flamenco's twist on folk. It certainly had a long history before we came along, with our extensive cd collections, and web sites. I think we should respect that.
Gary
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Date Aug. 18 2007 2:21:13
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Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
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RE: Folk vs. Flamenco (interesting b... (in reply to Adam)
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From my discussions with Ottmar, it's clear to me, at least, that he feels no need to defend himself. Like I said, defending is a faulty concept in music--I really don't think he's doing anything harmful to flamenco--so the fact that there is even a need to defend that music (that is, that there is so much attacking around here!) seems to me a bit unjustified. In my mind, music is music and to each his own.
More on topic (  ), I'm certainly talking about the flamenco that I saw in Spain on the streets or in the peñas, authentic live performances, not the flamenco CDs I own or my extensive MP3 collection or all this other fun digi-age stuff!. I think that's a completely different topic. Just so we're on the same page!!
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Date Aug. 18 2007 2:35:10
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Jim9guitars
Posts: 60
Joined: Aug. 25 2005
From: Kingston ON Canada
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RE: Folk vs. Flamenco (interesting b... (in reply to Adam)
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In Canada, where I live, flamenco is considered as a form of Spanish folk music, just as Celtic music is a form of Irish folk music, it's part of the culture of the country it originated in. The music Ottmar releases on CD is not considered to be flamenco by most people here, the term "nouveau flamenco" has taken on a life of of it's own, we have Canadian artists releasing CDs of this music, Jesse Cook, Oscar Lopez(a South American who became a Canadian citizen a few years ago) and more. Much of their music sounds like Gypsy Kings songs with no vocals(rumba strumming with nylon string lead) and there are people here who think that is flamenco, but most know better. I can't knock Ottmar for what he does, and I have seen a TV spot of him playing a very good bulerias(at least is sounded good an in compas to me). I guess I'm saying "live and let live" here, I'm not a big fan of his music but I respect him for being a good musician.
Jim
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Date Aug. 18 2007 2:53:00
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Folk vs. Flamenco (interesting b... (in reply to Jim9guitars)
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quote:
In Canada, where I live, flamenco is considered as a form of Spanish folk music, just as Celtic music is a form of Irish folk music, it's part of the culture of the country it originated in
thats true the same almost everywhere outside Spain but dosent necesarely make it so  it just means people pick an aspect they are comfortible with and go with it.
like nylon guitar---must be spanish---- spanish---- must be flamenco
truth is only about 30 % if.. of spanish population know or like flamenco
if they agreed with you, everyone would atlist know it.
i dont understand it, out of everything the spanish have given the world the one thing they are most known for they deny
i think majority wanna be remembered for julio iglesias, butraguenio, santiliana, raul 
they should be more like the romanians
the world wanted Dracula so we gave it to them, we built him a scary castle and everything
" - Yes yes hes scary and its real, thats $10 to go in " ofcourse romanian people dont go in because none of us ever remember hearing about dracula
before we saw it in American movies
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Date Aug. 18 2007 4:01:05
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Folk vs. Flamenco (interesting b... (in reply to Mark)
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quote:
From my discussions with Ottmar, it's clear to me, at least, that he feels no need to defend himself. Like I said, defending is a faulty concept in music--I really don't think he's doing anything harmful to flamenco--so the fact that there is even a need to defend that music (that is, that there is so much attacking around here!) seems to me a bit unjustified. In my mind, music is music and to each his own.
I dont know, the part bellow feels defencive to me, not that i care what he does or says, just an observation
quote:
In many cases I spent a long time breaking down a melody into its essential parts, cutting away notes that seemed superflous to me. That must seem completely alien and art-less to a Flamenco artist. Like a Moorish architect looking at the Farnsworth house by Mies Van Der Rohe and thinking that it is just a primitive box.
I feel that on La Semana I am combining these elements a little more… the melody and the melismata… There is, of course, a chorus with a defined melody - I can’t help that I love a nice chorus melody! - but I am also leaving more melismata intact.
I love the architect example used like flamencos are too simple, what he does is way beyond theyr understanding capabilities and THAT ! is why they find it art -less
does anyone have any other palos than rumbas audios of him playing ? can u upload in audio ? i am curious now
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Date Aug. 19 2007 4:20:50
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Folk vs. Flamenco (interesting b... (in reply to Adam)
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quote:
I think asking what palos he plays in is a faulty question when he admits he is not a flamenco artist...much like asking what palos Metallica plays
it wasent done to higlight that he plays no palo, he seems to listen to it, so i figured he would have done something, i was just curious to hear it.
i cant watch videos atm i am on 56k moddem
oh and he says he plays no flamenco however he uses the word pretty freely, neauveu flamenco, flamenco this flamenco that.
metalicca dont call theyr albums neauveau flamenco.
i got no problem with him and i am not attaking him, just asking questions as they come to me, he obviously does listen to alot of flamenco, just curious how much of it would have rubbed off on him.
if he started practicing flamenco even after his first album, he would have a pretty decent bulerias, alegrias etc by now.
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Date Aug. 19 2007 5:18:42
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Ottmar is a ....musician? Strips down to the essential melody? Please. 
