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RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Hi Rudy, the book is in standard notation only and if you have'nt learned the fretboard it's going to be hard to read. Thats a shame. There is also a video on accompaniment by a guy called Romero Lubambo (should be on Amazon and maybe on DVD ) and he gives excellent and really clear demonstrations of accompaniment as well as some concert stuff. Maybe that would be a better start.
I know what you mean about being attacted to the melody and not noticing the performance. Really for ear training to solve that a really good teacher is a big help. I've found though that I get a lot more out of music with a discriminating ear.
Anyway good luck in your studues and my aplolgies for being abbrasive.
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Rudygee2, I was hoping the intensity of Tomatito's rhythm style would appeal to you, but I guess I missed the mark. The problem is, if you are not in tune to what he is doing rhythmically, then you miss out on the "musicallity" of what he is doing, and overall it seems boring. You need to take the rollercoaster ride with him to appreciate what is going on there.
Before you go the other direction with you tastes, perhaps try Vicente Amigo, more lyrical player, more modern, but still very "flamenco" in style. This music is the other face of flamenco, "free style" playing, no rhythm, that is just about melody.
Another thing is don't force yourself into anything. You can allways revist this music after your knowledge of music in general grows. The first real flamenco I heard was Carmen Amaya dancing over Sabicas' guitar, and I could not stand the noisy stomping. Now I make a living mainly playing for flamenco dancers!
Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Totally agree with you Lionel. Flamenco is an acquired taste, which soon turns into an obsession! And the source of many sleepless nights trying to figure out what the heck Paco is doing with just a 'simple' guitar with nylon strings! haha... I'd dare any electric guitar player to give me goosebumps like Paco and al do! Viva Flamenco!!!
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Hi all, I have acquired the taste and the obsession. But really any musician of sufficient stature can still give me goosebumps on any instrument.
I love the way that my flamenco study has given me renewed insight into and appreciation of the possibilities of other guitar music that I have played in the past.
Trying to learn flamenco has made me a better classical guitarist. I am also sure that playing classical with love would make any flamenco a better flamenco. Or rock or funk or bluegrass or bossa nova.
I love the puzzle aspects of flamenco, it's like solving a really challenging crossword, the struggle and the time spent thinking are the point. And if someone gives us the answers then we miss all the fun. Hints and tips and the odd answer to help us along the way can be encouraging but we need to reread the questions ( listen to the music ) over and over again, put it down go elsewhere and then get back to it.
What is it about the great performances that make them great, how can we practice to develop the habits that recreate this magic ? Why does Paco sound so EXCITING, is that what playing Bulerias with great compas is all about ? When he changes time signature on a hair utterly bamboozling us then slipping back to standard phrasing before we grasp the trick.
Even on repeteated listening even at half speed it works, the years of incredible self control and discipline that make the difference between just another fast player ( and there are so many ) and those who make every note count. Its like being on a rollercoaster, you reach the turning point you think you are about to crash you are momentarily weightless and then you realise that the carriage never left the rails.
Lets all look at Grisha's videos again and thank him for dedicating his life to our pleasure. And here is paco playing Impetu.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to guitarbuddha)
I agree with Lionel too. And I think Sabicas would be good place to start researching... definitely "muy Flamenco", but not so complex and modern that its overwhelming to a newcomer. I too prefer solo guitar to cante, and it was guys like Sabicas (and PDL) that really got me hooked...
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Hey guys, its been a busy few days, so I havent had a chance to reply/look into all the artists you suggested.
JBASHORUN – Thanks so much for breaking the different sub genres down. Im already pretty confused about what flamenco is versus OTHER styles, and to even try and break it down to modern versus Nuevo versus traditional, Id be completely lost, hahaha. I haven’t had a chance to look at all of them in relation to each other, but I will!
Paleto – Just wanted to first say I really appreciated the long and thought out answer you provided.
Youre right that Im probably imposing my normal musical ideas onto this genre. But I was still hoping to find some connections to the music. Most of the stuff that was posted before your post, I hadn’t connected with. But some of the later posts I really liked.
About cantes….I don’t speak Spanish that well. I took 7 years of it between middle school, highschool and college, but I still really suck at it, hahahhaa. I cant understand them when theyre singing, so maybe that's why Im not that interested in it, ha.
I'll definitely give a look into the CDs you suggested. Based on some of the other stuff the other members have posted for me to listen to, I might be able to narrow that list down in a bit.
Guitarbuddha – Thanks for clarifying about the brazilian book. I still think Im going to get it. It might be awhile that I can actually use it meaningfully, but itll be a reminder of what I can accomplish if I really work hard at it all. About distinguishing a good musician, I think youre right that having a teacher helps. I cant distinguish a technically good musician on guitar, but I can on a violin because I had a private teacher for 10 years. Its easier to distinguish it when you’ve had someone constantly watching you and pointing out when something is done unmusically, haha.
No worries about being abrasive. You’ve been a huge help, thanks!
Ricardo – Ive been meaning to listen to Vincente Amigo because in some other threads it was said he was pretty far away from traditional flamenco but still very good. I actually really liked the song you posted by Vincente. It doesn’t sound anything like the other stuff any one has posted so far. I don’t even know if I would have pegged it as flamenco if I had heard it randomly. So what exactly is this? Is this modern flamenco, or is this something that only Vincente does?
Shroomy726 – I was kinda wondering that about you guys…if you guys went straight into flamenco and loved all of it, or if it was more of an acquired taste.
Oh wow, I think you might have finally found what Im looking for. I liked all of the things you posted, especially the first one. To me, they aren’t as "cluttered" or complex, yet still really musical. The first one really gets to me…theres something dark and mysterious about it and I really like it. So now Im pretty confused. I thought Vincente Amigo was modern flamenco, and that the stuff you posted was traditional. But I also thought that Tomatito was also traditional, so I have no idea what type of genre I like, haha.
So do you have any idea of what I like…is there a specific genre I can try and look up?
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
quote:
So what exactly is this? Is this modern flamenco, or is this something that only Vincente does?
Vicente is playing Taranta, a free form piece, his own melodies based on a traditional structure. Vicente IS considered modern. Tomatito is also considered modern, not traditional. Paco de Lucia is usually looked at as the bridge between traditional style and modern style flamenco. His old recordings up until 1973 or so are considered traditional.
Some modern day players still play in the traditional style. For example, you may also like Paco Peña who plays the "classics" of the flamenco tradition, rather than making his own new pieces. Here he is playing an other free form piece, similar to Taranta, but it is called Rondeña. Orginally composed by Ramon Montoya.
If you want to compare to a modern style Rondeña, here is Paco De lucia doing his own modern version based on the same form. Notice any similarites?
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
quote:
Oh wow, I think you might have finally found what Im looking for. I liked all of the things you posted, especially the first one. To me, they aren’t as "cluttered" or complex, yet still really musical. The first one really gets to me…theres something dark and mysterious about it and I really like it. So now Im pretty confused. I thought Vincente Amigo was modern flamenco, and that the stuff you posted was traditional. But I also thought that Tomatito was also traditional, so I have no idea what type of genre I like, haha.
So do you have any idea of what I like…is there a specific genre I can try and look up?
So you liked the Sabicas stuff, eh? well that means that you like "old school" Flamenco guitar. By that I mean traditional style, but also quite raw, primitive and undeveloped. Tomatito is pretty much a MODERN player, IMO. And even when he's playing traditional stuff he still comes across as modern as far as I'm concerned. Same with Vicente Amigo. these guys CAN play traditional stuff (obviously), but they are most well known for their smooth, slick and sophisticated playing, and IMHO that shows.
I also like Sabicas. Because of his simple, honest, and yet beautiful songs. I spend 10 TIMES more listening to sabicas than I do listening to VA and Tomatito. Some would consider that a result of my lack of musical intelligence, but who cares?
If you like Sabicas, you might wanna look up guys like Mario Escudero, Esteban De Sanlucar and Paco De Lucia (but ONLY his early stuff- we're talking PRE-1960s... albums like "Fantasia Flamenca" and "La Fabulosa Guitarra De Paco De Lucia").
I'm sure there are more guitarists in this catagory, so if anyone knows any, feel free to butt in.
I think I might also recommend El Nino Miguel...
Jb
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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to JBASHORUN)
quote:
Tomatito is pretty much a MODERN player, IMO. And even when he's playing traditional stuff he still comes across as modern as far as I'm concerned. Same with Vicente Amigo. these guys CAN play traditional stuff (obviously), but they are most well known for their smooth, slick and sophisticated playing, and IMHO that shows.
Its a bit like an ADULT trying to immitate a CHILD'S style of drawing... okay the results might appear "similar" at first, but they never have the same naivity and crudeness as the child's simply because... well, you do the math.
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to Guest)
quote:
Sabicas and Nino Miguel are great. Who would question that?
Oh, I've heard it said that Sabicas' work is "too simplistic and predictable" for some. Although I don't blame them really... if you're Albert Einstein, its probably tiresome to read children's comics...
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to JBASHORUN)
one of my teachers (i have two now, when i have the time and money that is) said that there's a good chance as i start progressing further, especially with my rhythm skills, that i might no longer appreciate the traditional works as the modern syncopated stuff opens up for me.
i hope he's mistaken. i have paco del gastor and chichuelo in heavy rotation and wouldn't want to lose the fact that i like both styles. but he's certainly right in that my understanding of modern flamenco is still in its infancy however much i listen to it.
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Oh, I've heard it said that Sabicas' work is "too simplistic and predictable" for some.
My experience of Sabicas is that it is totally predictable, but at the time, he was a PdL or a VA. So even though I don't listen to Sabicas much, I know his contribution to flamenco guitar was considerable. I do think he was very creative, I have nothing but respect for that.
I am puzzled by the attraction to Moron style playing though. I have heard recordings that suggest the guitars were out of tune, which is also puzzling unless it was live recording and not intended for wide distribution. A lot of the melodic lines are not only crude, but highly repetitive. I would be curious to hear comments from someone who knows Moron style well.
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to Paleto)
quote:
one of my teachers (i have two now, when i have the time and money that is) said that there's a good chance as i start progressing further, especially with my rhythm skills, that i might no longer appreciate the traditional works as the modern syncopated stuff opens up for me.
i hope he's mistaken.
Well, he is not mistaken in the sense that your tastes will change a bit as you gain more knowleadge. But that does not mean you won't necessarily like some old stuff you like now. It may mean you like the same artist, but start to appreciate different aspects of that artists playing than you did before, and of course possibly appreciate artists you can't get into yet.
For me, I did not stop liking Sabicas because I started to understand more interesting synchopations. Actually, I started to appreciate more certain subtlties in the technique of the old maestros, and noticed how little things have changed interms of technique. My tastes gravitate to more jerez style players, old and new. Moron style was never really my thing honestly, and I was kind of turned off to the whole thing after reading Pohrens books. (Call me crazy, but it seemed like hype as i was reading, even when I did not know anything about it.)
Anyway, as I advanced I actually started to appreciate the moron style more, or specifically Diego del Gastor's style. I mean he is more on beat with his rhythm, but it is still a cool groove to me. Compared to Sabicas he did not push and pull the bulerias so much to show his speed, it was more about a repetative line that is accented in a way that gives a nice groove. There are similar things in Jerez, even from the old timers that were contemoporaries of Sabicas. Not that Sabicas did not groove ever, of course he did. Just a different way. But to be honest, I really have started to appreciate Ramon Montoya more than anything as i have advanced. I mean, I notice now the things that Diego, Sabicas, Paco, folks from jerez even have gotten things from him.
Anyway, if you think moron style is laughable or just not "cool" or whatever, have a look at the 20 minute program about Diego del Gastor in Rito y Geografia. I mean, what he plays is not so hard technically, but I will say he had a very clean sound, and played with a lot of dynamics at times, sometimes super fuerte and intense. Overall you notice his charisma as a performer, and that is probably the main factor for his popularity.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Ok, I think I definitely like the traditional stuff more than the modern stuff. I listened to the two pieces that Ricardo posted, and I like the first one, but not the second one.
Ive taken up your guys' suggestions and got a bunch of flamenco music. Ive gotten stuff by nino miguel, gerardo nunez, tomatitos barrio negro, moraito, nino ricardo, paco de lucias fantasia flamenca (plus 10 other albums...), paco pena and of course some sabicas. Do you guys think Ive covered most of the groud with this? I know some of its modern and some of its traditional, and that I think I lean towards traditional, but I wanna give everything a chance.
So far, Ive listened to Paco de Lucias Fantasi flamenca, and to be honest it doesnt do too much for me. There are a few pieces that are ok, but nothing really sticks out to me. Still seems fairly "cluttered" to me, maybe Im just not ready to appreciate his music yet.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
quote:
Ive taken up your guys' suggestions and got a bunch of flamenco music. Ive gotten stuff by nino miguel, gerardo nunez, tomatitos barrio negro, moraito, nino ricardo, paco de lucias fantasia flamenca (plus 10 other albums...), paco pena and of course some sabicas. Do you guys think Ive covered most of the groud with this? I know some of its modern and some of its traditional, and that I think I lean towards traditional, but I wanna give everything a chance.
So far, Ive listened to Paco de Lucias Fantasi flamenca, and to be honest it doesnt do too much for me. There are a few pieces that are ok, but nothing really sticks out to me. Still seems fairly "cluttered" to me, maybe Im just not ready to appreciate his music yet.
LOL, You're very particular, aren't you! But if its Sabicas that you liked originally, buy what is probably the best Sabicas album available: "Flamenco Puro". If it turns out that you DON'T even like that, I would re-consider whether you actually like Flamenco at all, and perhaps just like a couple of songs that "happen to be Flamenco".
Jb
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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
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From: London (the South of it), England
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Perhaps some of the stuff you are listening to is too complex for a beginner?
How about listening to a few rumbas, Rumba improvisada, Entre dos aguas or Rio Ancho by paco de lucia, La lola by paco pena. Rumbas are very accessible to and most people can relate to the 4/4 beat.
I remember being completely confused/frustrated and unmoved when I first listened to a bulerias or seguiriyas, as I didnt have enough knowledge to be able to feel or hear the structure or melodies as easily as a rumba or maybe taranta
For my part, Entre Dos Aguas was the track that got me (and probably countless others) into flamenco way back when I used to play electric guitar.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to Stu)
quote:
How about listening to a few rumbas, Rumba improvisada, Entre dos aguas or Rio Ancho by paco de lucia, La lola by paco pena. Rumbas are very accessible to and most people can relate to the 4/4 beat.
I remember being completely confused/frustrated and unmoved when I first listened to a bulerias or seguiriyas, as I didnt have enough knowledge to be able to feel or hear the structure or melodies as easily as a rumba or maybe taranta
For my part, Entre Dos Aguas was the track that got me (and probably countless others) into flamenco way back when I used to play electric guitar.
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Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Mmm, the Rumba Improvisada got me hooked (well, once Ottmar Liebert segwayed me into discovering Paco :D). Ah, and Almoraima too. Perhaps someone could post that? It was the first real flamenco I heard and I handled the bulerias rhythm fine, so probably Rudy can, too.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
quote:
So far, Ive listened to Paco de Lucias Fantasi flamenca, and to be honest it doesnt do too much for me. There are a few pieces that are ok, but nothing really sticks out to me. Still seems fairly "cluttered" to me, maybe Im just not ready to appreciate his music yet.
Rudy, After reading through this thread, personally I think you are taking the p*ss my friend.
It's not our job here to persuade people to like Flamenco, but to help folk who have discovered it and need some help in learning more about it.
If it does nothing for you, then move on to your nearest record store and buy a bunch of albums at random and figure out what kind of music you like.
We are not the "Jehova's Witnesses" of Flamenco here.
Tried Status Quo?
They do a good easy-listening tune.
cheers
Ron
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RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
Rudy, After reading through this thread, personally I think you are taking the p*ss my friend.
Yes, I was beginning to subscribe to GuitarBuddha's initial perspective too. But I thought its gotta be worth one last shot...
The "Jehovah's Witnesses of Flamenco" is a funny thought... I can just imagine Flamencos going round knocking on doors and saying "Have you heard the Cante?!" and "Do you have Duende in your life yet?!"
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to JBASHORUN)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JBASHORUN
quote:
Rudy, After reading through this thread, personally I think you are taking the p*ss my friend.
Yes, I was beginning to subscribe to GuitarBuddha's initial perspective too. But I thought its gotta be worth one last shot...
The "Jehovah's Witnesses of Flamenco" is a funny thought... I can just imagine Flamencos going round knocking on doors and saying "Have you heard the Cante?!" and "Do you have Duende in your life yet?!"
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Rudy, After reading through this thread, personally I think you are taking the p*ss my friend.
It's not our job here to persuade people to like Flamenco, but to help folk who have discovered it and need some help in learning more about it.
If it does nothing for you, then move on to your nearest record store and buy a bunch of albums at random and figure out what kind of music you like.
We are not the "Jehova's Witnesses" of Flamenco here.
Tried Status Quo?
They do a good easy-listening tune.
cheers
Ron
No time to respond to everyone thats posted something so far (except thanks to JBASHORUN for posting the things on putfile), but I just wanted to reply to this really quickly.
This thread started by me asking if I could play classical on a flamenco guitar or the other way around. Unfortunately, I didnt have that great of a grasp of what flamenco was, and I was corrected on it. I did ask some help in leading me in the right direction of what authentic real flamenco was, BUT I NEVER ASKED ANYONE TO POST ANYTHING AND I NEVER ASKED ANYONE TO PERSUADE ME TO LIKE IT. People did that themselves, and Id feel like an ass if people went through the trouble of offering/linking pieces and I didnt bother responding back to them with what I thought. I offered my opinion of what I thought about those pieces. If they wanted to let it go, they could simply not respond back to me, but a few really helpful people really wanted me to experience the whole of flamenco before I gave up, and I really appreciate the help. But again, I never asked them to keep posting stuff til I found something I liked, they did that themselves.
Id appreciate it if everyone just stopped responding to this thread. Apparently Im wasting peoples time, so dont bother anymore. I really want to thank everyone that posted constructively in this thread though, especially Ricardo, JBASHORUN, guitarbuddha, Paleto, Shroomy726 and Manzmann. You guys have given me enough info and suggestions for song/CDs (see the list of CDs/artists that I acquired in a higher up post) that I can really go off on my own and figure out if flamenco is for me. If I do find stuff I like and I really want to pursue it on the guitar, maybe I'll be back for actual help on how to play.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
Id appreciate it if everyone just stopped responding to this thread.
I am just getting started!
But I think you are right, I did not respond before and that's because my knowledge of flamenco, which is not much more then yours, but I did read along to learn.
Now I can respond because I think it's a shame that you get pissed off for asking what you want to know and being honest about what you like and what you don't like.
But remember that a lot gave you good stuf to work with and only a few did not have the patience to let you make up your own mind.
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