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Im fairly new at guitar (9ish months) but Im considering dabbling in flamenco and classical. Im more interested in flamenco, but I might consider classical. Ive read some beginners posts, and I see that flamenco guitars are different than classicals, but is it still possible to play classical on a flamenco guitar or flamenco on a classical guitar techniquewise?
Im a student, so pretty poor, but I want to learn these new styles. Do you think it would be ok to just buy one type of guitar and then learn both styles on it until I really know if I need two different types of guitars? The way I see it is, I can buy a flamenco guitar cause Im most interested in that, and then learn classical technique on the flamenco because they are fairly similarly shaped. Or will the difference between a flamenco and classical be too much, and Id make bad habits trying to learn classical music on a flamenco?
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
I would venture to say, you CAN play classical music and techniques on a flamenco guitar, but the opposite, playing flamenco music or techniques on a classical, you run the risk of damaging the guitar. So if you get a cheap flamenco, Yamaha $350 for example is the cheapest I know of, then later decide classical guitar is what you really wanted to learn all along (unlikely IMO ), then you can upgrade to a nice classical model, like Smallman say ($20,000).
The other option is to get a cheap classical, and put a tap plate on it. Which of course if you get into flamenco more, you will need to upgrade to a nice flamenco guitar that has a nice low bridge set up etc...
Posts: 2529
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Well said, Ricardo. Rudygee2, I guess you already know the answer to your question. You are askin it on a flamenco guitar forum!! Buy the Flamenco Guitar and get ready for a magical journey!! O-Freaking-le!!
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to koella)
quote:
As a modest Dutchman I like you big-mouth Americans
LOL, I think he's a "big-mouthed ENGLISHman" actually. But he's right... go for the Flamenco guitar if you can. If you havent got much cash, the Yamaha is good value for money...
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
This type of confusing between too styles is very common for the beginners, i was like tu confusing but confusing between flamenco or electric guitar!!!!,
Until I decide that i want flamenco not electric guitar,
i advice you u should read and get more knowledge about the both styles u love,
Usually the players (even pro) who play more than one style "equally" are not a good player in both, they will reach a cretin level and then cant get any higher.
Classical and flamenco is similar “some how” comparing with electric which is very different,
i advice u too choose the style you like as a major and the other as minor,
But certainly you must concentrate on the major style more and play the minor after that,
and about the guitar, Ricardo give you the solution, the yamaha flamenco is good guitar for beginner, very comfortable and more quality than the cheap wood boxes (made in china) guitars,
if u are really broke, buy at least yamaha c40, lower the action and use some good string (la Bella or d addario),
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Thanks for the answers guys!
This might be a stupid thing to ask, but I have a quick question about flamenco...
I first learned about flamenco through watching tango songs being played on the guitar (specifically, Tango en skai), and I really like the other instrumental guitar solos for other styles of flamenco music (for example, I really like this guys flamenco stuff
But I'll be honest, when its accompanying singing, it doesnt really do anything for me. Is this a bad sign that flamenco might not be for me?
If anyones interested, the stuff that I would want to learn on classical is bossa nova, but I dont think its necessary to play that on a classical guitar.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
...crap. Apparently I really dont know anything about music :( At least not in terms of classical guitar and flamenco. I have NO hispanic/latin roots and am very new to all of this, so my apologies about getting all this mixed up. Im not even sure why you brought up Argentinian tango, hahaha....is tango en skai argentinian tango?
As for bossa nova, I know that its related to violão which is nylon guitar, but I was under the impression that its more or less the beats and rhythm, so thats why I thought it was possible to learn as fingerstyle on a steel stringed.
As for Sal, where do I buy a book on how to play like an incompetent guitarist, because to be honest, I really like they way he plays.
Sorry for getting it all wrong. I see stuff that interests me, but if its outside of my immediate comfort zone (american rock), then Im kinda lost. Thats why I come on to these boards....people help point me in the right direction!
Edit: Now that youve seen the types of thing that I do like....do you think you could put a name to it or something so I can further explore in the RIGHT direction?
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Get some CDs of some good flamenco. Paco de Lucias Almoraima is a good place to start .
Also there is a book by Paco Pena called Toques Flamenco which is really great and has a CD of all the performances.
When you play an acoustic instrument and you pluck a chord with your right hand just right you can feel the guitar respond and breath with you. This is what bossa nova rhythm guitar is all about. Go on get and acoustic instrument.
It's like Lara Croft looks pretty good but its nothing like dancing with a hot chick, go Nylon.
As for your taste, its not your fault there is a whole media based around keeping you ignorant and making you buy into the sh*t that they can control. Maybe try and expand your horizons.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Hello Rudygee2. I see you have some common misconceptions and things that might make you feel embarrassed or confused. Don't worry, it happens to everyone that discovers flamenco.
Tango en Skai is a very cool piece. Of all classical guitarists I like Roland the best, because he composes cool stuff for guitar and has good rhythm. Sounds like you like rhythm if you like that AND you like bossa nova stuff.
So how to separate good authentic flamenco from the "iffy" stuff? Well you can start collecting recordings as suggested. But man, with internet nowadays it is much easier to educate yourself quick. Let us start off with something that is undoubted, 100% guaranteed "flamenco", not only that but "GOOD" flamenco guitar playing. And no singing either, but this is something that EVERYONE into flamenco, no matter how snobby or into the flamencology of it will agree, it is a good example of good flamenco guitar playing.
Notice the rhythm here is a bit more complex, more up beat and intense than some other stuff you are familiar with. Also notice the guitar...no classical guitarist would want their expensive classical guitar played in this manner...hence the need for a proper "flamenco" guitar.
If you don't "like" this, then you can safely say flamenco guitar is not for you.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to Ricardo)
I listened to the piece Ricardo posted, and while its definitely cool, it didnt do anything for me musically...so Im thinking that I liked some aspects of the "flamenco pieces", but these probably werent the authentic aspects of flamenco, haha. Im thinking flamenco might not be for me. Thanks alot for posting that for me to listen Ricardo!
I know this is a flamenco forum, but you guys here seem pretty informed about bossa nova....I was wondering what do you guys think is the best way to go about learning this. Actually, before I ask this, is stuff like this really bossa nova or am I SUPER confused about everything
Posts: 2529
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to koella)
Yeah, I'm an Englishman, and generally not loud mouthed. but when it comes to flamenco I like to shout from the roof tops!!! Hazaar!! lol
rudygee2, just cause you dont like the idea of playing with a singer or perhaps even for dancers doesn't mean flamenco is not for you (IMO). When I started playing, I kind of felt the same and didnt' even spend that much time listening to flamenco. I was just happy playing alone in my room. Then something happened (I think I started really listening to Paco De Lucia) and this whole world of good stuff opened up before me and I was hungry for all of it. Even now though, I still am not completely comfortable with some of the singing on some recordings, but I'm slowly coming round. I guess some of its an aquired tatse.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
If you don't "like" this, then you can safely say flamenco guitar is not for you.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I mean I (personally) like it. But Flamenco is a very diverse artform, and some people like one thing and others another. Some like only traditional stuff, some like only modern stuff, some like only stuff with cante...
Rudy, Tango En Skai is a cool song. In fact, one of our members even has the user name "Skai" which he took from the Dyens song because he liked it so much. But he ALSO likes Flamenco.
I would recommend buying several good Flamenco CDs (with diverse content), several Bossa Nova CDs (with diverse content) and several Classical guitar CDs (with diverse content). Then sit down and listen to them all and decide what REALLY turns you on.
BTW, I think Dyens is primarily a CLASSICAL guitarist, rather than a Bossa Nova one...
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
That bossa is some bloody awful guitar playing, why not go and look for a performance by Baden Powell or Luis Bonfa to hear how the guitar is played professionally in a genre where incompetence is a barrier to progress. I fear that you are indeed a philistine.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to guitarbuddha)
quote:
I fear that you are indeed a philistine.
What happened to keeping an open mind, David? Come on, lets not belittle forum newbies. After all, I started off listening to Nuevo Flamenco because PDL was too complex for me and I couldn't follow the patterns within it easily enough. But things change, and so do people. Music is a journey...
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
I know , I know JB I do have a tendancy to meanness but I'm starting to think that this is a wind up. The guy seems to exclusily put his foot in it, I think he is yanking our chain. The two vids he posted are just bl**dy awful, all the information he gives is wrong. He watches Tomatito once says it does nothing. It's depressing, Ive been studying for 17 years and trying to improve myself all along the way and the general public ( if this guy is a sample ) would prefer the way I played after six months with my head stull up my a**e.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
quote:
Now that youve seen the types of thing that I do like....do you think you could put a name to it or something so I can further explore in the RIGHT direction?
Yes, it is a bit tragic. But I hope the guy has better things to do than mess around on forums and pretend he likes things he doesn't. The video he posted was a fairly simple song and played quite crudely. If he likes this sort of thing, there are probably numerous "beginners" Flamenco and classical books that would teach similar things. But if he says he likes Dyens, then he has his work cut out.
Either way, I would recommend he does a bit of research and experimentation of his own. after all, only HE knows what he really likes, and WE can't really tell him what is good or not.
That is, if he IS serious about all this...
Jb
_____________________________
¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Flamenco was an aquired taste for me. I started on my stepfather's classical and beat the **** out of it
This one got me hooked.
Flamenco singing took a while for me to get used to. Now I love it and have more cante than solo guitar albums, it did annoy me at the beginning though.
The more pro you get the more the flamenco/classical decision will become important. As a beginner in the first year most of what you'll be learning as a solo guitarist will be the same besides the strumming.
Eventually you'll have to decide, but that's a ways off, I'd say. Nowadays I play flamenco and have maintained quite a classical repertoire over the years which sounds nice to somebody who doesn't play a classical instrument, which is enough for me.
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
Posts: 2529
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to JBASHORUN)
JBASHORUN, off topic i guess but what the hell.... ....Where you from in london? I noticed you posted a video of steve homes playing, how long you been having lessons from him??
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Thanks for all the replies so far, even guitarbuddha.
Manzmann - Glad to hear that about the singing and dancing. But Im starting to think that maybe flamenco really isnt for me. Its not that Im not interested performing with dancer and singers, its that the music that is created (with the singers) cases just doesnt appeal that strongly to me. But I guess it could be an aquired taste, but I need some foothold into the genre, and if I dont like the instruments that much, then Im kinda out of the foot hold.
Jbashorun - Hmmm, I was thinking that too about the diverse styles, but I figured there must be something that embodies all the basics of flamenco, and that if I didnt like that, then I probably wouldnt like it overall. But then again, Im fairly ignorant on the subject, so I really dont know.
I agree that the best way would be to buy a bunch of CDs, but really, thats alot of money. Like Ricardo suggested, many things can be found on the internet, so I was hoping to utilize Youtube in specific to help me get a taste of everything. The trouble is since Youtube is filled with amateurs as much as pros, its hard for me to distinguish exactly what is what.
Thanks for being so encouraging
Guitarbuddha - I never said those clips that I posted were done technically well. I just said I like the baisc style and wanted to see if I was heading in the right direction. And in the case of flamenco, I was going in the wrong direction and Im glad you guys set me straight on that.
Ive only been exploring around in these genres for a total of a few days with the extent of my experience being limited to online message boards/webpages, which is why Im ignorant on most of the subjects. Im sure you know that every genre of music is very diverse and that the first step into any new thing is very confusing. Ive never heard of what authentic Flamenco is, nor did I have any way of telling what authentic flamenco sounds like without the help of you guys. As for not liking the Tomatito clip (I actually watched it 3 times! haha), I said that its interesting, but that it doesnt touch me musically. If it doesnt make me want to listen to it over and over, what are the chances that I'll have the dedication to actually learn a whole new style of music? This is no insult to the flamenco style or his playing, its just a personal preference.
I tend to post up "easier" pieces because to me, these are more musical. Alot of times I listen to "masters" of their genres, and I dont like it as much because it sounds so complicated and obsessed with technique that I lose focus of listening to the music. Its like electric guitar shredders, I dont find that interesting at all. Id much rather have simpler, yet more soulful fingerstyle.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of good bossa nova artists though, that is helpful. I heard the main person in bossa nova was Joao Gilberto (I hope this info is correct...but on my streak, its probably not, haha), but the stuff I found on Youtube was mostly singing accompanied by guitar, and I really like instrumental stuff.
Just to clarify, I do tend to like watching amateurs play a genre. I like watching professionals as well, but that doesnt make me dislike the amateurs. The reason being is that I'll probably never reach professional level, so seeing amateurs plays sets a more realistic goal at first. Maybe I'll achieve and surpass those people and strive to play like the pros, but I gotta be realistic in my expectations.
If you honestly think Im just yanking your chain, then please dont bother responding anymore, because its a waste of both of our times. I DO want you to continue responding though, because obviously youre very knowledgeable in in latin/hispanic music.
John O - Thats a cool thought, that maybe I could I could just go into it and see where it takes me because I dont have to make any real decisions right away (minus buying an extra guitar....). I'll keep it in mind.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Ahh.. The signature composition of Dyens! But there's more to him than that. Basically that piece is based on the Argentinian tango, completely different from the flamenco tangos. Anyway Dyens isn't exactly classical in a large sense. As he is usually described, classical in his fingers(ie. technique) but jazz in his mind. He uses alot of jazz harmonies especially in his live recitals where he improvises superbly, rather than belting out a list of classical guitar standards. If I'm not mistaken, he never prints programmes for his recitals, instead he improvises and plays whatever he feels like at the moment.
Of course flamenco might take some time in order for you to acquire the taste in it. Many get into it through nuevo 'flamenco' while some get interested due to it's flamboyant and unique right hand techniques. Some stick with it and go deeper onto song and dance, some get turned off by it. No need to argue which culture/genre is the 'best'. To claim that flamenco is the best way to go is a pretty immature statement imho. Let him do some research while we show him the various options available for him. He'll decide later I guess.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to Skai)
Thanks for the clarification about Dyens. I didnt think that some of his pieces sounded that classical (i.e. like mozart, bach, etc....I used to play violin classically, so these are my experineces with classical music. I dont know how much of it applies to classical gutiar though). Thats why when I heard something like tango en skai, I was confused about the origins/style. I ended up just doing a quick search on wiki of tangos and it said it was a sub-genre of flamenco...and then that led to a misguided attempt to look on youtube for "flamenco" playing, which led me here, which finally led me to authentic flamenco music.
So Tomatito is traditional flamenco right? Do you have any good suggestions of any "new flamenco" that I should look up?
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
My problem isn't with the fact that the pieces are technicall easy, the problem is that they are played UNMUSICALLY. Their playing is ugly.
Gilberto is the man for brazilian accompaniment. Bonfa is the composer of Carnival, Baden was the most accomplished guitarist of the Jobim era. If you want to study Bossa Nova then buy The Brazilian Guitar Book by Nelson Faria it is truly wonderful and I have seen nothing elso like it, it also contains recordings of loads of short examples and full pieses also. Get it.
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Ah, Im simply not good enough to distinguish good versus bad playing I guess. But I was more or less listen to the song, to see if I like the style. Anyways, even if I cant ever distinguish musical versus unmusical in bossa nova, this would actually probably be an advantage becuase this way, I'll actually be able to stand my own playing
Awesome, thanks alot for clearing that up about Gilberto and stuff. Ive heard of that book before, seems like it gets alot of recommendations. And it sounds like exactly what Im looking for. I'll take you up on this recommendation. One quick question though, is it standard notation? I wouldnt let this stand in my way of learning, but I just want to make sure I know what Im getting. I can read standard notation because of violin, but I havent learned the fretboard well yet. Temptations of tabs are so great :(
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
quote:
So Tomatito is traditional flamenco right? Do you have any good suggestions of any "new flamenco" that I should look up?
Rudy, start by having a look (and listen) through the audio/video uploads section of this forum. there's quite a wide range of stuff there, from tracks and videos by professional guitarists, to stuff other members have done. there will also be a good mix of modern versus traditional, hopefully.
As for Youtube, if you're looking for "modern" Flamenco, try searching for stuff by Gerardo Nunez, Vicente Amigo, Jeronimo Maya, Jesus De Rosario (the list goes on)...
If its "traditional" Flamenco you're curious about, try searching for guys like Sabicas, Paco Pena, Paco De Lucia (but ONLY his EARLY stuff), Nino Miguel (great player!) Mario Escudero, Esteban De Sanlucar, Nino Ricardo, Ramon Montoya (the list goes on)...
Ofcourse, if its NUEVO Flamenco you're interested in, try searching for guys like Ottmar Liebert, Strunz & Farah, Jesse Cook, Oscar Lopez, NovaMenco (the list goes on)...
And if its BOSSA NOVA you want to hear, then I can't really help you. Although some other members have mentioned some names that might be a good place to start.
Jb
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¡Si esto no está en compas, esto no es el Flamenco!
Posts: 243
Joined: Jul. 29 2003
From: San Diego, CA
RE: New to Flamenco...help please! (in reply to rudygee2)
Hi Rudy,
In many cases, those of us who have been studying flamenco for a while were hooked in by a particular artist or group of them performing. In my case, the strongest attractants to flamenco from my beginnings were the following:
1) Paco de Lucia - Siroco
2) Paco Pena - Azahara
3) El Pele and Vicente Amigo - Poeta de esquinas blandas, both the CD and what little video from the early 1990s of them that has surfaced. I brought back a VHS tape of those two with Moraito and Patxi Camara playing tabla that just hooked me for life.
The reason for the first two is really that those two recordings were carried at a local Tower Records (this was about 1987 - 1988). The third (CD and video) was released in Spain in 1991 or so, when I was studying over there, specifically to learn flamenco guitar, but also I took classes at a university.
You have to consider that you are entering this with certain unconscious ideas about music, and that whether you know it or not, you are imposing your taste on something that was conceived with its own aesthetic and that it emphasizes different aspects of music than what you have known previously. It will take some time to come to appreciate it.
It took some time for that music to grow on me, the length of the compas (rhythm in bulerias, alegrias, solea, siguiriya etc.) made the phrasing longer than the typical pop stuff I was used to. But the depth of emotion and breadth of historical roots give an artist a lot to work with once a listener/guitarist can hear at least some of what is being communicated and can comprehend the work it took to be able to communicate it, that moment opens a new door.
At first, I found the cante harder to appreciate, but I was patient, and I speak Spanish quite well, which helped me to begin to grasp it. However, by continuing to listen to cante, it really grew on me, and I now love hearing good cante. I played for a singer here in San Diego (about 6 months ago), with 3 dancers and another guitarist for a large event at a new, beautiful community being built and had the greatest experience, largely because the singer did such a good job (the dancers were stellar too). It was that moment which really crystalized my appreciation for cante. I also saw Duquende on tour with Paco de Lucia, probably 10 years ago now. I could really hear what Duquende was doing, and I was really amazed at his vocal control, it was another great moment for me and helped solidify an appreciation of cante.
I suggest you buy 3 or 4 cds out of the following list and listen to them for a period of months. Allow them to grow on you. Use the internet to listen to other guitarists performing the same song forms you are hearing on the cds so you can begin to get a sense for the song form, as opposed to the "piece" on the CDs. Also, balance modern and traditional guitarists for the best understanding.
Recommendations will abound, but ultimately you'll have to decide which CDs you buy.
I would suggest that you consider among the following CDs, given that they cover a range of styles within flamenco:
1) Vicente Amigo - Un momento en el sonido - Very modern, but absolutely gorgeous, a fair bit of non-traditional flamenco instrumentation, tasteful in every regard in my opinion. Vicente might be the most musical, unique guitarist among everyone.
2) Gerardo Nunez - Jucal - Modern style playing, but little other instrumentation, strong throughout, especially nice taranta/solea por bulerias. Gerardo is brilliant, awesome technique and full of interesting ideas.
3) Paco Pena - Azahara or Arte y Pasion, more traditional playing, but with some gorgeous touches, exemplary of great playing within traditional style. Each also gives you an introduction to a wide variety of flamenco forms.
4) Paco de Lucia - Almoraima or Siroco, complex modern classics, well rooted in tradition, but paving the way for newer ideas. Paco has been the biggest influcence along with Manolo Sanlucar on mot of these other guitarists.
5) Tomatito - Rosas de amor, Barrio Negro or Aguadulce - For me, these are Tomatito at his best. Tomatito is liked by both traditional and modern guitarists, always tasteful and interesting, quite musical too.
6) Enrique de Melchor - Bajo la luna or Raiz flamenca - traditional flamenco guitar with other tasteful musical touches. Easy to like and musical.
7) Sabicas - Flamenco puro, 1961 - Earlier, but a well regarded classic.
8) Paco Cepero - Bordon y corazon - Another tasteful, traditional recording from a highly respected guitarist.
9) Nino Ricardo - Historia del flamenco
10) Moraito - Morao y oro or Morao, Morao - you may have to check several online stores before find available copies.
Printable Version
), then you can upgrade to a nice classical model, like Smallman say ($20,000). 
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