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RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost.....
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Ramón
Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca
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 RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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quote:
Just a question, especially for RAMON.
If a guitar had machines, and you were to convert it to a peg head...would that also be harm done to a work of art? Or an improvement?
Ricardo,
If a guitar was a 'fun' guitar for kickin' around, something I wanted as a 'project', (no name), etc., I MIGHT.
And yes, visually, it WOULD be an improvement, to me, BUT!!!
I would never do it to something like what I originally posted; A 50's or 60's Reyes, Ramirez, Miguel Rodriguez, A. Fernandez, etc.
As I posted; W H Y ??? When there are so many machine heads out there, why would someone select a peghead and then do that!?????
Why would I search for a beautiful ** peghead, buy a machine (like I said, when was the last "deal" on these things?).....Then cut the head and MAKE it a peghead? Why not just BUY a peghead?
Sorry, the logic eludes me.
Dan Zeff's has/had 10 Reyes. 3 were pegs, 7 were machines. GSI has/had 3, all machines. There's a guy selling one in Spain, machines. Why buy one of the few remaining pegheads and then cut it when there's so many MORE machine versions out there already.
Or takes a Bellido and makes it some 'stage gig' guitar out of it. There's a ton of Gypsy King-versions already made for just that.
I'm not trying to make anyone mad, but to me, it just seems like we're kind of losing a bit of history, duende, art...It's just something that kind of kills me when I see it! 
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Date Feb. 17 2007 2:43:12
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Ricardo
Posts: 14833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)
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quote:
Sorry, the logic eludes me.
My question was loaded. I guess it is obvious you look at pegs as more "artistic" than machines. But the logic for doing it is clear. If you want it done, it is cheaper than buying the same quality guitar with it built in.
But I sort of agree that when you see those instruments "for sale" all the time, you have to wonder, why are they unloading the thing, if it was so great that they needed to convert it? 
I will admit, I have one instrument that I, shall we say, "enhanced"? It was a hard desicion at the time, but I am not regretful. It was badly damaged already, and at the time of the repair I thought, what the hell. Sure, the instrument might be "devalued" on the open market, but you won't find it for sale anytime soon! At this point, it is "invaluable" to me anyway.
I heard that Gerardo Nuñez waited 8 years for a Reyes. He did not like the feel of the neck, so he took a big metal file to it!  He did not like the sound enough either to keep it. Later he found a Barbero in a dumpster that he had restored and still has! It is all about personal preferences. Wooden box with strings is all it is in the end. Art to one person, trash to another.
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Date Feb. 17 2007 6:06:11
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)
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quote:
You should, in all seriousness, check into the mechanical pegs before cutting into the Reyes.
The ones re-worked from Brian Burns are outstanding, work as well and as easy as machines, yet retain the pegs look and feel, without so much work, too.
Bone or ivory dots, too!
I disagree. I to have made a guitar with these pegs and I didnt like them. To me its fake and not a nice alternative. If you want machine tuning, use machines. If you want the sound, feel and character of a traditional peghead, use wooden pegs. (they can work very well if you take care of them)
I dont think they have a nice feel and I have serious doubts about sturdiness. You cannot compare the tuning to good quality machine heads. They are quite a lot heavyer than wooden pegs, making the difference between machine heads and mecanical pegs small. (Remember that you cut away a large amount of wood when yo use machines. I think the final weight will be more or less the same as if you use light fustero tuners)
They are very thick and therefor the head looks heavy and not elegant. They do not have this "directly in wood vibration" that wooden pegs have.
Where I agree is that its a lot easyer.... bore a 9mm hole and here we go.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Feb. 18 2007 8:37:58
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Jim Opfer)
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With all the respect of Siminoff, Flamenco guitars are just not his thing. I know that working with or without electronics is a personal thing, and that you can make excellent guitars both ways. Right now I can remember one (1) reference about flamenco guitars in "Luthiers handbook" and none in "taptuning" In the reference he´s saying that Cedar is the best choce for flamenco soundboards. You can make very nice flamenco guitars with cedar, but around 90% of flamenco guitars are made with spruce, and thats because its what the players prefere, so I would say that he´s a bit "off line". In taptuning he says, that guitars and components should be tuned to "natural" tones (G A etc.) and not to sharps or flats (G# Bb etc) This because "natural" tones are being played the most. With the heavy use of capos in flamenco, this is completely useless, so again no usefull reference to flamencos.
In general, Siminoff says more sustain is quality. Again, in flamenco no or not nescessaryly.
Do you ask me about a weight on my guitar?
Yes, I´ve tried putting a shubb capo  on a flamenco and when I compare with putting my lightest wooden capo ( a lot lighter, less than half the weight) i dont think I can hear any clear difference...
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Date Feb. 18 2007 15:51:10
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)
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There are a lot of ways that a guitar could be defaced and still remain a functional tool. I'm not saying a machine conversion is defacement. I'm point out that the tool/art distinction isn't a valid one. It's too black and white. I've worked with some beautiful rosewood and brass planes, inlaid with mother of pearl and maker-signed; they are definitely tools, but they are also art. Most musical instruments fit even more squarely in that gray area. Their shapes are beautiful -- okay, autoharps not so much, but there is artistry involved in making most instruments, and I would think myself presumptuous if I were to impose my own changes on an instrument -- especially a very fine one made by luthier more talented than I. My first reaction would be to fix it rather to change it. Or to adapt to the guitar rather than making it adapt to me.
I can understand the impatience of someone used to machines when they use pegs for the first time. And some pegs are so badly fitted that they really should be redone. I suspect many people feel the pegs are more aesthetically pleasing, but have a little patience and you might find you actually prefer their functionality as well -- certainly they are faster when changing strings, they are lighter, and if you don't insist they work like the machines you are used to, you might in time discover they work just fine. You just have to hold the neck with your right hand and push the peg in slightly with your left as you turn to keep it from loosening. Sometimes it helps to wiggle the peg a bit laterally as you turn it if it is stubborn. I am so used to pegs I find myself shifting my right hand this way when I'm tuning a machine head.
Or get them refitted. A peg made with unseasoned wood will shrink to become oval. A peg head that is made with unseasoned wood will shrink and render the holes oval. In that situation, they can't be expected to hold in all positions. Simple geometry. Re-reaming and reshaping (or replacing) the pegs can fix this. I have one pegged guitar with such finely matched pegs and holes that they work as easily as machines. It can be done. And it can be redone until it is right.
If nothing else, pegs are a reflection of tradition, and there is something to be said for that. They have survived for centuries and are still around despite competition from modern machines. There is a reason for that.
The Amish have a maxim that they try to live by: before speaking, they reflect on what they are about to say and ask themselves; Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? If it isn't all three, they say nothing.
A little reflection might be in order. It's not evil or wrong to put machines on a peg head. But it might not be necessary. Maybe the guitar isn't just a tool to be used. Maybe it also has something to teach.
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Date Feb. 25 2007 3:50:04
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