2 more beautiful guitars lost.....

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Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

2 more beautiful guitars lost.....

PLEASE, PLEASE STOP! Please do NOT 'convert' a beautiful old peghead to machines "so it will be easier to tune". It simply isn't THAT much easier to tune to justify ruining such a beautiful, original, hand-crafted piece of art!

Yet another Ramirez (on eBay) has been 'converted' (perverted?), and then some guy took a 1982 Bellido and added those funky 'Carlos' pegs AND added electronics??? (and "Pat Metheny playing this guitar"...Is he using a PIC??)

Are these the guys on eBay that also sell gross lots of guitar pics in the Flamenco/Classical Guitars area!?? Or the guy who drilled hole in the head of a 60's Ramirez "so it would be easy to hang on the wall"??

If you MUST go 'mechanical', use the pegheds from Brian Burns (excellent, hard to tell they're not ebony), or simply have a very good luthier shave the pegs (or re-peg) and clean the holes. I have a little Negra re-done by luthier Bob Hein, and the ebony pegs tune almost as simply as a machine. Really...

I know I seem passionate, as I do love peg heads as they feel like the 'essence' of flamenco guitar, but it's like taking a Van Gogh and "adding a few dabs a paint here and there to make it better"...

These guitars ARE works of art. Trade someone your peg for a machine version, but save the history!

R

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2007 16:31:51

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

I dont agree Ramon

For me a guitar is a tool for making art and not a piece of art itself. It comes close, but there is a difference. Even though I build myself, I do not consider myself to be an artist, but a craftsman. Here in Spain its called artesano and its not the same as artista....

Changing pegs to machines doesn´t really change a guitars value IMHO and again, I look at the guitar as a tool and not a piece of art or a collectors item. Converting it just makes it different. If someone has a guitar he/she likes but does not like the pegs, converting it is a good solution. I agree in that pegs can work ok, but most players prefer machines, especially when they play in stressed situations.

Another story is to bore a hole in the guitar in order to hang it on the wall..... Thats pretty sick, but again, I´m not to sure i´t has changed the guitar (tool) that much. Maybe to the better because of less weight in the headstock

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2007 17:41:16

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

For me a guitar is a tool for making art and not a piece of art itself.

I disagree. To me, luthiery is an artform. When you create something from nothing, in this case, a guitar from a pile of wood, that is art my friend. You say a guitar is a tool for making art. I understand what your saying. But what good is a beautiful painting if no one looks at it. Is it no longer a piece of art?

You handcraft beautiful instruments. Whether it's played or not, it still is what it is. Art. If it's not played, it's just unappreciated art.

These are just my opinions.

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2007 17:48:43

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

I agree - in a way, but if you WANT machines, buy a guitar WITH them; don't buy something old, original, and beautiful - and THEN add machines. And for "stressed situations"; gigs, etc., simply use a guitar that already has machines.

Grinding away at the head and adding machines isn't the art part of it, nor does it help the guitar. I just can't believe some of these beautiful old guitars aren't just left original.

I'm sorry; I look at these things AS artwork; beautiful to hold, look at, AND play. I could not imagine finding a nice 60's Reyes or something and walking in and say; "Grind out these pegs and add machines so it's 'easier' to tune"...... "Oh...and add electronics to it, too, so I can really jam'..."

Just my thoughts.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2007 18:00:40

Ricardo

Posts: 14884
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

The problem is for the player, who uses the "art piece" called "a guitar", is that it is not always so easy to find a second guitar, that is both sounding and feeling like you want, AND practical and useful for your applications.

Case in point, all the skinny neck, bad action acoustic electrics. Now, to some degree, good mics and sound reinforcement techniques can take it pretty far, but ultimately, there is a limit to how practical things can get. I personally have different guitars for different applications, but it takes some getting used to the different instruments. I wish I could have my best sounding/feeling guitar for EVERY application.

There are many who don't have time or money to buy several, or get used to different guitars, so they make that "wish" a reality. I think changing the head stock for machines is a minor thing, if the guitar is so amazing sounding and playing. Cutting into the sides or body to fit electronics is something more significant and serious. Al dimeola added electronics and "cutaway" to his Gravina Conde! That is some serious "work" done to a guitar. But even worse, Paco de Lucia seems to be redoing his soundboard (jury still out?), which is the ultimate change IMO to what the guitar "is" as an art piece overall.

But who am I to judge those guys about what they do to THEIR guitars? Ultimately, a guitar played a lot and well, is a guitar "loved" IMO.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2007 18:50:57

JBASHORUN

Posts: 1839
Joined: Jan. 23 2005

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

the clue is in the NAME. A guitar is an musical INSTRUMENT, and this word implies that it is a TOOL used to acheive a purpose. But thats not to say that you can't incorporate artistry into luthiery... IMHO that last point is the mark of a good luthier, and the appreciation of such works of art marks a musician of a certain calibre.

Jb

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2007 18:58:38

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

quote:

I just can't believe some of these beautiful old guitars aren't just left original.

Most old vintage guitars that are converted to machines is due to the fact that the peg holes have gotten "un-rounded" and worn out so bad that pegs no longer work properly. This is the only reason I would convert a guitar. If the original pegs work fine.....LEAVE EM' ALONE.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2007 19:16:05

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

Tom

Its not that big a deal to plug the pegholes and fit new pegs...

I think pegheads are being converted because of practical iisues like the ones Ricardo mentioned, the owner needed another tool...

I still think the best distinktion is in the words artisan and art... The first has and idea of serving a purpose (The guitar, the tool) the other might serve a purpose, but its not its main idea

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 8:05:16

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

quote:

Please do NOT 'convert' a beautiful old peghead to machines

Sorry! Ramon, I totally dissagree. I had my 69' Ramirez converted to machines and and I'm about to have it done to my Reyes. Guitars are for playing especially if they are good ones.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 13:06:37

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Jim, did your Ramirez change in character with the conversion?

I can easily show with a frequency analysis program and a computer that the frequency response change when changing the weight of the tuners. This is not only when the change is drastic, as when converting pegs to machines. It is also possible to see a difference in resonances changing one set of macjines to another of a differing weight. The question is if the computer or the ears are the most sensitive instrument. I have always thought my ears are better than any computer when evaluating quality, but this is a tricky one. Does the quality and character change or is it only the resonance frequencies? What is your experience Jim?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 13:51:38

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Hi Per,

Yes! Interestingly I've had this discussion seperately with Anders.
The work was done by Pablo Requena and we were careful to choose the lightest weight, quality machines we could obtain. I was also concerned about the balance and feel of the guitar because I play traditional position.
When you take the wood slots and the pegs out of the equation the machines are not all that different in weight. The biggest difference probably comes from the immediate friction contact the pegs have with the guitar head although the strings still have to 'break' out over the nut. I think the vibrations down the neck however are blunted slightly by the change.
I have no tuning problems with her now and therefore I'm very pleased I did it.
Next up, it's Manuel Reyes for a haircut.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 16:50:17

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

A Reyes?

How sad..... Again, why not just BUY a Reyes with machines?

I'm sorry; I just don't get it.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 17:30:57

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Jim Opfer)

According to theory it is mostly the bass response that changes but I believe that I can see other changes too. If I can hear them I am not sure of. But I can feel them in a change of tightness in the instrument. In classical guitars the change sometimes is for the better, sometime for the worse with a heavier head. I guess it can be the same with flamencos too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 17:37:27

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

I can feel them in a change of tightness

Yes! I know what you mean. I guess the increased break angle over the nut with the strings on a steeper angle down into the new slots could increase the feel of 'tightness' you notice.
If loss of peg friction is a factor then these hybrid mechanical pegs will probably alter things too.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 18:10:54

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

quote:

How sad..... Again, why not just BUY a Reyes with machines?

I'm sorry; I just don't get it.....

Ramon, again, I disagree, because I know this Reyes is going to be played. I´m not Jim, but I think I have the answer:
This Reyes is the one that Jim likes. Not some other one. (am I right, Jim?)

If there´s something that makes me sad, its when good guitars end up with colectors only playing them 5 minuts a month when they dust them off, Thats ten times worse than drilling a hole in the headstock IMHO

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 18:13:00

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

quote:

I'm sorry; I just don't get it.....

Hi Ramon,

As Ricardo said, I like the sound and the feel of the guitar but it has pegs.
If pegs were so important, machines would not be more popular.
Vicente Amigo's Reyer has machines and sounds great so I don't see why it's such a problem. You can hear the guitar here;

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 18:23:22

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders wrote:
Even though I build myself, I do not consider myself to be an artist, but a craftsman. Here in Spain its called artesano and its not the same as artista....
--------------
I agree with Anders. The art is in the music, the guitar is a tool, the maker is a craftsman (I like the word artesano). I consider guitar making as a form of bench carpentry which is an old term for the highest level of woodworking. Being a bench carpenter was a profession which carried a great deal of respect and took years to achieve. Perhaps as difficult as learning to play guitar well but not an art. What's wrong with being a good craftsman? They're probably more rare than artists.

John Shelton

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 18:35:13

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Jim Opfer)

quote: Yes! I know what you mean. I guess the increased break angle over the nut with the strings on a steeper angle down into the new slots could increase the feel of 'tightness' you notice.
If loss of peg friction is a factor then these hybrid mechanical pegs will probably alter things too.

No Jim, that is not what I meant, even if what you speak of matters too!

The neck has two VERY important functions looking only on how it works acoustically. The first is most often around 75-90 Hz which is only slightly lower than the lowest air resonance. If the neck resonance and the air resonance is close enough they exchange energy. You can hear it as a "broader" bass, the bass is not so boomy but very bassy anyway (when it works properly). The second is when it feeds the second back resonance in the region of ca 260 - 350 Hz. A heavier head, i.e. machines instead of pegs, lower the first neck resonance and can also affect the other too. Sorry to be so technical. If I try to come to an end and a conclusion I want to say that the movement of the neck is very important for how the guitar feels. Don't ask me how the best neck is. I just want you to know that if you change from pegs to machines you change the way how the neck moves and put energy into the guitar. If your Ramirez sounds good and feels the same you have had good luck. You can have less luck with the Reyes if you are unlucky. You never knows until it is too late. Even a bad refret can ruin the sound of a guitar so be careful!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 18:40:22

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Per Hallgren)

Hi Per,

I'm sure all of what you say is correct.
I'm an Architect not an Acoustic Engineer and I tend to see things the way I understand them best. I'm more intuative and definately less scientific in my thinking. I can understand ideas expressed in terms of forces and responses on the guitar and that's the way I think of it, being hit with a bag of tatties is less sore than being hit by a car

.
To my mind the lighter the guitar the better although there has to be a balance. The best guitars I have come accross are lightweight. They are full of energy and are very responsive. However, I do have one lightweight guitar where the bass sound is a bit out of control and I feel if the guitar were heavier (probably a thicker top) the bass sound would be more at service to the instrument.
I realize the neck is important and have read how some makers (Valeriano Bernal comes to mind) hollow out the neck for acoustic gain.
Anyway, it started with a discussiuon on pegs, I agree the guitar changes if changed over, how that is? I'm open to learn. Is it better or worse? Mmmm...!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2007 20:28:48

Ramón

Posts: 440
Joined: Feb. 23 2005
From: La Jolla, Ca

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

For me, it simply is this; If you don't like pegs, WHY BUY ONE AND CONVERT IT?

It's like shopping for an automatic, buying a 5-speed, and then converting it. Why? There's so many out there, already.

I see quite a few Reyes guitars with machines out there already. I see 1A Ramirez blancas with machines. There isn't/wasn't some "super deal" that saved some incredible amout of money to buy a peghead in such class of guitars (pegs actually seem to get a little better price from what I see), and for the "budget" guys who can only afford one guitar, why buy a peghead and then spend a substantial amount to convert it? It simply make no sense.

And it's not about machines or pegs, it's about converting and losing the few pegheads that remain. Vicente's Reyes may sound amazing, but I'd bet it was BUILT that way, not converted. I've never seen a pic of him with pegs, so I'm sure he bought his Reyes WITH machines.

It's not the sound qualities gained or lost, it's that I simply find such guitars beautiful (and more and more rare), and cannot imagine why someone would buy a peghead when there are SO many machine versions available, and then go cut into it to make yet another machine version.

Sorry. I just don't get it. And Jim, it kills me what you are going to do. Can I go out and buy a Reyes with machines and just trade you????

But it IS a spirited discussion! lol

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 1:06:19

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

I agree with Anders. The art is in the music, the guitar is a tool, the maker is a craftsman (I like the word artesano). I consider guitar making as a form of bench carpentry which is an old term for the highest level of woodworking. Being a bench carpenter was a profession which carried a great deal of respect and took years to achieve. Perhaps as difficult as learning to play guitar well but not an art. What's wrong with being a good craftsman? They're probably more rare than artists.

Alright I change my mind. I'm a toolmaker.

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 1:12:17

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

What's wrong with being a good craftsman? They're probably more rare than artists.

Exactly. A good craftsman is something harder and harder to find in modern buy cheap, throw away society, so it should get all the respect it deserves.

Tom (you punk

) A tool maker is one who makes tools, a guitar maker is one that makes....... hm guitars

To mix up things

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 7:25:28

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

Rereading my posts of yesterday I realize that my arguments are hidden behind "scientific" mumbo jumbo. Give me a new shot.

Good guitars are good because of good design, good material and good craftsmanship. Great guitars are coincidences forced by luck and rare, gifted and extraordinary craftsmanship. Great guitars are rare because not even the best among us guitarmakers have this luck all the time.

The movement of the neck is as important in a guitar as the movements of the top and back. In a great guitar all parts are in a balance which gives this "synergy effect" that the greatness is a proof of, i.e. the sum of all parts is something really bigger than if the balance was just a tiny bit different. Changing anything in such a guitar danger the balance and the greatness of the instrument. Changing from pegs to machines CAN change the balance and we all know that a change in weather can make our guitar sounding dull. Guitars are sensitive creatures, and the better they are the more sensitive they are and the more we risk to loose. Jim, if you were asking me for advice (and I know the you're not) I would say that it is risky going from pegs to machines. I am not saying that it is sure that the greatness disappear in your Reyes, only that there is a risk of, and if I had a good Reyes I would not take the risk.

Just to make clear. To change a great guitar from machines to pegs would also be risky so this is not about pegs being better. It is about a certain and fragile balance that those rare great guitars have.

And Ramón, I agree with you although it is a sentimental argument. I love pegheads for their own sake.

Anders, if a guitar is not played because of the pegs the owner should be changed, not the pegs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 7:27:28

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

quote:

Anders, if a guitar is not played because of the pegs the owner should be changed, not the pegs.

Haha, yes Well, thats what I would do myself. The argument is about what is esthetically right, and I dont have problems with people changing their instrument, their tool for making art.
I personally love pegheads myself, and every time a client ask for a peghead I get happy, because its such an esthetical pleassure to build one.

With respect of weight. I dont think there´s a big difference. The peghead is massive and ebony pegs weigh something as well. Lightweight Fusteros are light and what you cut and drill away from the head weighs as well.

I´ve built some 5 - 6 pegheads. Enough to notice that they play different. They have a certain attack or vibration that their machine head sisters dont have. The sound is more "poppy" and dry, more old school. They are charming , but often less forgiving because they are so transparent in sound. You hear everything which can be tough when you are not a monster player.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 7:44:43

Ricardo

Posts: 14884
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

Just a question, especially for RAMON.

If a guitar had machines, and you were to convert it to a peg head...would that also be harm done to a work of art? Or an improvement?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 7:51:59

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I am not trying to proof anything else than that it matters what weight the neck and head have. What is best is a matter of taste.

Here's some numbers:

ebony pegs (37 gram) + cedar and rosewood veneer comparable to removed wood in a convertion (ca 20 gram) = ca 60 gram +/- 5 gram

Gotoh lyre machines (which are quite light) 125 gram

The difference is some 60 gram. Add this weight to your guitars at home folks and see what I mean! It doesn't need to be a peghead. Do it to your everyday guitar that you are familiar with and you will notice a change in character. Some of you will like the change, some of you will dislike it, but the change is there! 60 gram can seem to be a neglectable weight compared to a guitar that is 1200-1700 gram in weight but it is not. Fine tuning a guitar is a matter of finding an extremely fine balance between the different parts in the instrument. It doesn't matter if your guitar is made by an artisan with divine insight in finetuning or not. Change a part and you change the guitar.

Sorry if I sounds as a preacher. I just want to show you the way out from the dark!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 9:01:40

el ted

Posts: 466
Joined: Nov. 13 2003

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Ramón)

I have to agree with Anders. I bought a glorious blanca from him last year, and since then I've had it resprayed 'sunburst' and have had a couple of PAF humbuckers nailed into it.. works for me!!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 9:58:52

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Tom (you punk ) A tool maker is one who makes tools, a guitar maker is one that makes....... hm guitars
To mix up things

Anders, the guitar is a tool, no?

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 11:57:16

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Per Hallgren)

quote:

Jim, if you were asking me for advice (and I know the you're not) I would say that it is risky going from pegs to machines.

Per, you could also argue that making the change might improve the guitar?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 15:55:15

Per Hallgren

Posts: 241
Joined: Jul. 1 2006
From: Sweden

RE: 2 more beautiful guitars lost..... (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Jim, all I try to say is that you know what you have but you don't know what you get. It is true, your guitar could get better, even more magical, but it could also get worse, loosing that magic.

I am not saying to anybody that it is wrong to convert from pegs to machines. I just want to offer my insight that the guitar is very sensitive and that a guitar that is magic in it's current state could loosing it's magic if one change something. It is up to the owner to take the chance. A guitar is not a holy relic, I agree with Anders in this case, but on the other side, those totally magic guitars ARE RARE. If you own one of those rare guitars, please don't change it. If you own a guitar that is simply good or very good, go on. Do what suits you. It will most probably still be a good guitar after the conversion, although somewhat different.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2007 17:26:09