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picado problem
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 picado problem
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 i still till today i am playing the picado not well it doesnt give me the sense of the of flamenco i mean i play it slowly okay ...but when i begin faster i doesnt sound good so does anybody could recomand me an exercise or somthin for this? 
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Date Jan. 22 2007 8:46:26
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Guest
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RE: picado problem (in reply to Guest)
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thank ya i ll try this but actauly i think there is some secreats i ve to gain more,
thank ya anyway
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Date Jan. 22 2007 11:26:40
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Ricardo
Posts: 14855
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: picado problem (in reply to Guest)
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One problem is playing slow you have control over the finger movements. When going faster a lot of people move the fingers more than necessary, comparing to when going slow.
One "secret" I discovered for keeping the fingers from moving too much, is to practice stacato with the right hand. Doesn't have to be a scale necessarily, but any melody you play with i-m. The idea is to plant the finger on the string first. When alternating fingers,after one finger plays, the next finger comes in REALLY quick and mutes the string in the "ready" position.
If you play 8th notes for example (BING BING BING), the muting happens in rhythm like a 16th note rest, between each 8th note (BIP BIP BIP). In effect, you are moving your fingers twice the speed necessary to prepare each stroke. If you watch your hand in the mirror, you will be surprised how efficient your movements look after practice stacato. Also you will notice you don't need to play hard to make it loud.
The only problem is, this actually slows your overall top speed way down. But the result is you have a more controlled sound and rhythm. From this point speeding up will give better results.
Ricardo
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Date Jan. 22 2007 17:03:12
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DoctorX2k2
Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada
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RE: picado problem (in reply to Doitsujin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
And, dont practice too much. Your brain needs free time to save the stuff. So not too much too fast. Step by step is the best. Also if you think you dont get better.
To learn picado is a process, which takes some time.
These are only some general things. The best exercise is to practice only a couple of different scales slow and later faster. If you play too many different scales at first, you fingers wont learn the movements, coz its allways different.
Last semester, I've taken an extra class outside the medicine program called Motor Learning, a kinesiology class.
You have to distinguish performance and learning. Let's take golf for example. In a practice session, your performance normally improves after each strokes until you reach a point where fatigue drops it down. When it comes to learning, the golfer comes back at least 24 hours later and do the same task. If his performance is better than it was at the begining of the previous practice session, he has learned. But a lot of different methods show different learning percentages. Here are different ways of practicing :
-Grouped or Distributed (Grouped = little resting time and Distributed = long resting times between repetitions).
-Constant or Varied (Constant = same task with the same properties and varied = same task but with varying properties (ie : speed).
-in Bloc or Alternative (Bloc is one task over and over (ie: running) and Alternative is different tasks after one another (ie : running, jumping, walking, running, walking, jumping, etc).
-Global or Split (Split = dividing the task into smaller tasks like dribling, jumping and shooting, all separated, to improve your "jump shot" at basketball).
For grouped or distributed, too little resting time increases fatigue and this fatigue can persist and lower learning speed, while too much resting time increase your practice session time to a point where it doesn't give you benefits anymore. You need to find a compromise between both.
For constant or varied, studies have shown that a varied practice increases learning, even though your performance is lower within the session. So always practicing at the same speed with a metronome isn't the best idea, you should vary it. You should also vary finger patterns and scales.
For "in Bloc" and alternative practice, yet again, studies have shown that randomly alternating tasks increases learning faster BUT the subject has to have a minimum of control and knowledge about the movement. So basicly, when learning something new, you should practice in Bloc then switch to alternating once you control it. So practicing a piece or a song has more benefits than doing the same exercise over and over once you know how to do a specific movement.
Also, you should forget about splitting the task in smaller tasks... transfer tests have shown little to zero progression, especially in complex tasks.
Finally, adding complexity to an already complex task improves learning (always the expense of performance). So, adding slurs to a scale might be better.
It's also important to point that knowing the result is crucial in the learning process. That's where you need feedback and guidance about what you're doing. Too much feedback has the perverse addictive effect. Let's take golf for example again, if the instructor tells you exactly what you have to do after every single strokes, your performance will increase fast but come back alone on the course the day after and you wont have learned much because you became addicted to his feedback. If the feedback is non-existant or comes too long after the strokes, your brain wont be able to correct its motor schemes well enough. The best feedback is one that isn't too long after, where the student has to figure out what's wrong by himself and bring his own corrective measures after some imprecise guidance from an instructor.
And... that's all I can remember so far. It was a very great class though (got A+  )
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Date Jan. 22 2007 17:04:20
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Guest
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RE: picado problem (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
One problem is playing slow you have control over the finger movements. When going faster a lot of people move the fingers more than necessary, comparing to when going slow.
One "secret" I discovered for keeping the fingers from moving too much, is to practice stacato with the right hand. Doesn't have to be a scale necessarily, but any melody you play with i-m. The idea is to plant the finger on the string first. When alternating fingers,after one finger plays, the next finger comes in REALLY quick and mutes the string in the "ready" position.
If you play 8th notes for example (BING BING BING), the muting happens in rhythm like a 16th note rest, between each 8th note (BIP BIP BIP). In effect, you are moving your fingers twice the speed necessary to prepare each stroke. If you watch your hand in the mirror, you will be surprised how efficient your movements look after practice stacato. Also you will notice you don't need to play hard to make it loud.
The only problem is, this actually slows your overall top speed way down. But the result is you have a more controlled sound and rhythm. From this point speeding up will give better results.
Ricardo
ricardo i need a littel bit more explanation plz ...... 
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Date Jan. 22 2007 17:49:30
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hamia
Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
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RE: picado problem (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doublekk2
i still till today i am playing the picado not well it doesnt give me the sense of the of flamenco i mean i play it slowly okay ...but when i begin faster i doesnt sound good so does anybody could recomand me an exercise or somthin for this?
I started playing the guitar when I was fairly young but never made significant progress and eventually more or less gave up after a few years. My mistake was that I hardly ever played exercises and mainly tried to play pieces by working out the finger positions. Also I used to play with long nails (a very bad thing). About 4 years ago, after a break of 20 years or so, I took it up again, teaching myself from scratch. Most of my practice time is spent on rest stroke exercises as I find these benefit picado, arpeggio and tremolo (if all right hand fingers are included). Over the past few years I’ve had a few thoughts on ways to improve picado and general technique. Mostly based on stuff picked up from the internet and instruction books. There’s a lot of good advice out on the internet although some can also be misleading.
It’s often said there are no fixed rules, just play any way you feel comfortable with. This is not particularly helpful. It’s obviously true to some extent – if you play long enough you will get very good regardless of what particular technique is used. And there are virtuosos who don’t play any exercises. But they undoubtedly have played hours a day for years on end! Not many of us have the time or the inclination to do this.
What is needed is an idiot proof method that will convert practice time to improved picado. And this is the Graf-Martinez method: keep right hand very flat and play from the middle knuckle. Aim (at least during practice) to get all power and movement just from the middle knuckle. In fact try to bend the large knuckle down towards the soundboard (there’s a photo of this in GM’s book). We’ve discussed this before on this forum and many people believe this technique is impossible or nonsense. Well I’ve been trying this for about 2 years and highly recommend it. When I restarted playing guitar I played for a year with a very highly arched wrist with totally straight fingers (a bit like some bass players) and so I was initially skeptical about GM’s method. I now believe it to be a brilliant way to practice picado. It requires perseverance though. This is not a technique that you can try for a few weeks and then evaluate its effectiveness. You’ll probably need months of work to even get off the ground. But it’s worth the effort. I have been making consistent progress over the past 2 years and expect to have a decent workable picado in 2 or 3 years (and I’m over 40!).
Here are some random tips:
1) Cut off your right hand nails and learn picado without any nail contact. For a beginner (i.e. anyone with bad picado!), nails can get in the way of proper finger placement and movement. I still play without nails even now (although not by choice – my nails are not suitable and I haven’t got round to trying any fake ones yet).
2) Spend most of your time playing exercises. Learning a piece of music doesn’t have the intensity of finger movement and repetition present in an exercise. There’s a lot of dead time in learning/playing a piece of music compared with playing an exercise. (Of course I am just talking about technique here not “musicianship”).
3) Picado requires a great deal of finger strength. Therefore you need to spend time practicing with a lot of power. Play moderately slow with total control. Picado also requires speed. You will get this by practicing speed bursts. Speed bursts must be played very fast - fast as Paco. Tapping right hand fingers on a table can help get you on the right track – I started finger tapping after I read Grisha’s report of Paco doing some finger exercises without a guitar! (Also useful to tap left hand fingers in coordination with the rh). Speed bursts should initially be played light. As your fingers become stronger and better coordinated you can increase the power. So you can see a variety of methods are required.
4) Always play with control. First practice a 2 note speed burst. Once you can play this at warp factor 10 then you can add another note. It will probably take many months to progress from 2 notes to 6 or more notes. You can’t hurry this – improvement will happen at its own rate. Play at first on a single string, just right hand with no left hand to complicate matters. As you improve, you can include string crossings and also the left hand. The basic principle is to start simple and then when you have control you can add more complexity. I like to play the left hand staccato, precise movements hammering down and then lifting off, seems to help coordination.
5) Left hand will also require a lot of work. Initially it will be weak so you need to strengthen each finger. Trills are useful.
6) Do not play long scale patterns at first. Maximum benefit is obtained when the fingers and muscles are trained to repeat exactly the same movement. A long scale pattern (across and/or up fingerboard) allows untrained muscles too much potential for variation.
7) Spend a significant amount of practice time (in the first 2 years) just playing with right hand only.
8) Get a portable practice device – they are great. You can practice silently while watching the TV, riding in a taxi, etc! Can be used for both right and left hand (I do one hand at a time though).
9) I’ve also got a travel guitar. Basically a small block of wood with a full scale fingerboard. It’s light but can take a few knocks – good to use in the bathroom! It comes with headphones but I threw those away. You should be playing with sufficient power to hear the notes without them.
10) I suggest the first 2 years are spent with very short scale patterns: eg im on 2nd string followed by im on first, and repeat (for 1 hour!). You can create a wide variety of similar patterns for the 3 right hand fingers.
11) Do not underestimate the amount of time needed to make progress. 20 minutes of picado practice per day won’t get you anywhere fast. You probably need to be spending one hour/day at the minimum just on picado.
12) Don’t vary your practice content too much – repetition is the key. Stick at a few core exercises. Don’t do 5 minutes of one thing, 5 minutes of something else etc.
13) Bend down the large knuckle towards the soundboard (as shown in GM’s book). In my case this seems to be especially useful for the m finger – it helps prevent it moving excessively.
14) The bending down of the large knuckle is for practice only. When actually playing picado (eg in a piece of music) the hand can relax somewhat and assume a more normal shape, like Paco’s. In fact in this case the power for each finger stroke comes both from the large knuckle and from the middle knuckle.
15) Play staccato. The rh hand position in the GM method seems to automatically produce this effect. Eventually you will reach a stage where the fingers seem to always be pulling against the string, i.e. never letting it return to its rest position. As soon as one finger lets go of the string the other finger is immediately there to pull it back again – it’s as if the string is under continuous tension.
16) When playing fast (controlled!) picado the fingers are on “automatic pilot” you don’t need to think about movement or string crossings – it’s the result of practice! Don’t try to “force” your fingers to go faster – it’s a waste of time.
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Date Jan. 25 2007 9:57:06
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