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RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Arash)
Of course I understand you were kidding. No harm done. I'm still looking forward to seeing the pictures of your Dad's stuff.
A zero fret is used in place of the edge of the nut, probably to help lower the action and make the guitar more playable in the lower positions. I think the Bellido family in Granada has been known to use them, but don't quote me on that.
When a maker obtains a pre-made fretting template it's always good to ask if it was cut for a nut or for a zero fret. Knowing which form allows the luthier to adjust based on how they build. Most suppliers probably won't know what you're talking about so it's good to measure. I have both. A fretting template cut for a zero fret will have an edge one half of one tang width closer to the first fret than one cut for a nut. Which is OK, because in a way it's a form of compensation. So I don't worry about it either way anymore.
Posts: 4647
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Next you should make a video showing how to stay in tune with a drop B tuned guitar while beating the crap out of it. I've only seen one solution so far as shown by Manuel Valencia here at 02:50 and 05:35
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I said Ramzi's guitar has no compensation because that's what he measured.
-Robj
Ramzi measured from the Zero fret to 12 and doubled it. The zero fret is a compensation for the scale, inherent to the measurement. Compensation can be spread out across the frets' positions or added to the position of the bridge, all in relation to the string length. Your statement implies to me that "hurray there is no EXTRA compensation" because the 12th fret 2x= the same number as the bridge position. If it was different, as in plus a mm or so, that would be compensated additional to the already compensated scale via the zero fret ahead of the nut. To me compensation on top of compensation was hilarious. Maybe it is not to others, sorry.
Ahhh...I just reread this and somehow I had missed what you were saying. Probably because I was upset. Now I understand why you found it hilarious.
I just want to clarify something. Mainly because it seems you have the impression that a zero fret is a form of compensation of sorts. I guess it could be, but generally it isn't. The nut is moved back to make room for it and the zero fret removes the nut from the equation and takes the position of the edge of the nut.
A zero to twelfth measurement really is a measure of exactly one half of the true scale length. I say this because the twelfth fret placement is derived from the scale length and it, by definition, sits directly at the midpoint. It has to, unless, as you say, the fret placement itself has some form of compensation built in. Could happen, I sometimes wonder about the use of the rule of 18, but that's about the extent of it, I've never gone much deeper than wondering. Modern placements rely on using a more accurate divisor than 18 and that number is chosen to place the twelfth fret at the exact midpoint.
If the zero fret placement were to be compensated it would impact the distance to the first fret. Kinda like I was explaining about fretting templates and also why I kept clarifying that the 0-12th was a true measure but not necessarily the nut to 12th. But it wouldn't make sense to do this as one of the impacts (and likely intents) of the use of a zero fret is the reduction of the deformation/stretch of the string when it is fretted at the first. So, if anything, it could be said the purpose of a zero fret is to reduce the need for compensation at the nut, not to add it.
Also, and you can call me Robj on this one, when Ramzi told me he had measured following my 0-12 suggestion and then from nut to saddle and the results were the same it had not yet been revealed that he had used his wife's sewing tape. Sure, tape stretch could account for missing the compensation, and likely does, but we'll never know. My statement about no compensation was made prior to that revelation and I guess it's on me for not being more rigorous in questioning his methods. Mind you, at that point WWIII had not yet broken out and I thought we were still living in a time of peace.
Any rate, I've said what I've had to say. This whole episode has left me feeling rotten.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to RobF)
November of this year will be remembered as the ‘Time of the Great Flame War of Seven Millimeters of 2025.’
Rene’ Barslag is the Granada maker who has employed the dreaded zero fret. And the purpose of this zero fret is to make the open strings sound more like fretted strings, an attempt to homogenize the voice of the guitar. It’s an odd idea given the voice of the guitar can be varied by using the open strings another tone color or drone.
Ron would have headed this all off and kept it more congenial. I’m not happy with our collective performance in remembrance of his care At keeping the jokes from getting too mean. At our best we’re better than this. You don’t have to like everyone, but you don’t have to go full throttle
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to estebanana)
The Bellidos use them, too.
I'm not happy with what's happened here, either. It represents the worst of us.
I'm not apologizing any more. The apology I offered earlier in the thread was heartfelt and still stands. I regret those particular words, obviously they would have been better left unsaid. I'm not proud of any of this but I'm going to stand on business.
Damn it, I was stating simple and obvious stuff that was correct and verifiable. I was trying to help somebody with clear instructions. Doesn't any of that count anymore? My sin is in not tailoring my replies effectively to match the audience and then not knowing when to walk away, but I'm not yet ready to get out the bullrushes and start self-flagellation in penance. Truth be told, I'm still kind of pissed off and feeling hard done by.
People can read the thread and draw their own conclusions. As I said earlier, the whole affair makes me feel rotten. Probably makes everybody feel bad.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to rombsix)
It tells me I'm glad you're selling that darned guitar.
Maybe don't even say anything at all about it unless asked. And then just say what you measured zero to saddle and forget about the zero to twelve stuff. It just confuses people, apparently. Explain how you did your measurements and that you don't have confidence about being too specific with the numbers but that's what you got. I don't think it'll affect the sale one way or the other, TBH.
RE: Scale length with zero fret (in reply to RobF)
Several months ago I made a post with a number error and I almost fashioned myself a crown of thorns because I was crucified for a decimal place typo.
The difference between 0.36 and .036 in guitar making is like an airliner pilot missing the runway by five miles. Everyone knew it was a misplaced decimal point, yet I was treated as if I were a moron ( yes I am that, but not about guitar making)
Everyone knows FF made an error because we have tired old eyes, fat old fingers and smart phone keyboards with type pads with are : I’m going to measure and post dimensions:
So we’re bound to make an error somewhere.
I you feel the temptation to argue over scale compensation two things, you need a walk and you are running an impulse control deficit 😂- how about just taking a break if there are obvious mistakes. If you box a luthier into a position where they have to say they made a mistake you may as well lock yourself into a walk in freezer with a velociraptor from Jurassic Park. They will hiss and try to cut your face off. Do the right thing and go for a walk and let Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Raptor settle down.
This is what Ronzo transmitted to me in a seance last night.
The dimensions of my smart phone keypad are:
6 cm x 2.5 cm
Each individual letter pad is 5mm x 5mm
We’ve come to the point that iin order to each other, we have to focus our entire intelligence and forefinger through a digital threshold that’s a rectangle twice as small as the palm of your hand. It’s insane. No wonder we’re all crazy.
Mistakes are bound to happen. If a guitar maker gets a stiff back about a mistake, let it go for a while and see what happens.
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Thanks everyone! I appreciate everybody's input. 
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