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Cedar of course does not have a surface that’s as resilient to impact damage as spruce, so it’s easier to get a ding in the surface. But guitar makers are looking for qualities of stiffness, in both cedar and spruce.
As Estebana Said, it gets gradually absorbed into the wood, which is a beneficial effect. Usually it's used a 2 component poly in 1 layer. Different matter with nitro: the cracking effect is particularly bad with orange nitro finish because of the pigment and also because of the different layers. Imho nitro improves when it's fully dried.
I agree with Stephen and yet, considering the average, cedar is a lighter and less stiff stuff than German red spruce
I've always been under the impression that nitro never quite stops gassing out and, consequently, the finish continues to grow thinner over the years. I've never thought poly finishes behave the same way, but I can only draw upon my experiences and anecdotally have found that poly is a much more stable finish than nitro, as far as gassing out, etc. goes. It's a plastic. I also have never thought that either poly or nitro is absorbed into the wood over time, at least in any significant amount. Which doesn't mean that's not the case, I've just not seen evidence of that, probably because I've never looked for it. If it does thin, I suspect it is more due to oxidation than absorption. Or at least that's always been my opinion. But I honestly don't know, save to say some of the things mentioned in this thread kind of surprised me. Are there any articles or the like that discuss the absorption or gassing out characteristics of poly finishes? I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm genuinely curious.
I also think it's important to note that "poly" is a broad term, in as much as the poly found on guitars made in the 60s and 70s can be quite a different finish than that found on modern instruments. It's constantly evolving. Even nitro has evolved. I remember ten-year-old guitars finished using the old DuPont Duco and nitro clears from the early 60s looking pretty rough by time they made it into my hands in the mid 70s and, even though people today seem to want super authentic old style nitro finishes, when push comes to shove they often complain if a new guitar with old style nitro starts to degrade in the same way or shows the same delicacy (checking and the like) as the old ones.
*edit* I guess that which gasses out can also gas in, so that would support the idea of absorption. Like I said, I'm more interested in learning and updating my knowledge than anything else, so any info on this will be appreciated.
*edit 2* I just grabbed a 45 year old Ramirez (poly) I had kicking around and a ~50 year old Gibson J-55 (nitro) and the Ramirez looks pretty darned good. I wouldn't call the finish on the neck thin, by any stretch, and the finish on the body looks more like it was applied thinner than the neck. The Gibson is another story altogether. The finish is extremely checked and very thin feeling all round. It's also almost matté, at this point, while the Ramirez still has a fair amount of shine. The finish on the neck on the Ramirez almost looks as new. The top shows the signs of being well played, but still looks great. All in all, I would say the finish on the Ramirez is very durable, indeed.
When the polyurethane film get old it’s gets more stiff and brittle.
then does polyurethane subject to cracking/checking like nitro when humidity changes later in life? I have not seen it yet.
I don’t know yet, but I’m doing my Post-Doc work in advanced varnishology as a resident researcher at FOB University of Southern North Dakota at Kagoshima Annex Campus. I’ll let you know when my peer reviewed research is published in the Boil Lancer Journal.
I am telling you, in blind tests nobody could really tell. But nobody wants to do a proper blind test so there is always a bias present. The general consensus is that cedar need not “open up” like spruce, ie, the guitar will never improve from how it is “now”, or new. Most likely this is also biased. I used to not like Cedar on principle (yes I was biased against my experience with an old Ramirez that I did not really like). Yet that Felipe Crespo I heard and played was shockingly superior to all the other guitars in the room back in 2014. I had no choice but to discard my prejudices.
When people say it is “the best” that is because of the look or contrast of light and dark wood (light sides and back with darkish top seems “exotic” compared to the standard Blanca’s). Like in the summer when your girl has yummy tan lines.
I love your answer, Ricardo. Even with my own guitars, ones that I built, I hear no difference between spruce and cedar topped ones.
I am telling you, in blind tests nobody could really tell. But nobody wants to do a proper blind test so there is always a bias present. The general consensus is that cedar need not “open up” like spruce, ie, the guitar will never improve from how it is “now”, or new. Most likely this is also biased. I used to not like Cedar on principle (yes I was biased against my experience with an old Ramirez that I did not really like). Yet that Felipe Crespo I heard and played was shockingly superior to all the other guitars in the room back in 2014. I had no choice but to discard my prejudices.
When people say it is “the best” that is because of the look or contrast of light and dark wood (light sides and back with darkish top seems “exotic” compared to the standard Blanca’s). Like in the summer when your girl has yummy tan lines.
I love your answer, Ricardo. Even with my own guitars, ones that I built, I hear no difference between spruce and cedar topped ones.
Ethan, which wood talks to you more? Cedar is always talking, but spruce is a bit more tight lipped. Cedar, well is kind of a blabber mouth.
I've never seen this kind of paint cracking on a flamenco guitar, I've only seen it on some acoustic guitars.
that is the nitro thing we have been discussing. My 1973 with similar rosette has the same. My Father's Hauser also has this, and Brune confirmed it is nitro lacquer.
I have a stereotype about this kind of lacquer———— the paint is so thick that the guitar can't vibrate adequately. I never played a guitar with this lacquer so I don't know the exact condition. But many of my friends have the same stereotype so they prefer French polish.
I have a stereotype about this kind of lacquer———— the paint is so thick that the guitar can't vibrate adequately. I never played a guitar with this lacquer so I don't know the exact condition. But many of my friends have the same stereotype so they prefer French polish.
Yes, a worthless bias as many others. As the article earlier explains, over time the lacquer "thins", and same for shellack. It is just that shellack can be touched up easily, and nitro or poly need to be completely overhauled. Also, as stated, the modern nitro and poly can be applied to dry or thin out much faster, avoiding the "crackling" etc., so it is a quality only of the those old vintage guitars. In terms of sound, those nitro instruments such as my dad's Hauser 2,1970's estesos, are some of the best sounding instruments ever produced. The guitar I recorded my album with is modern, thick nitro, too many people ask about the guitar used for that recording.
Nitro is a thin finish and this is what really matters. Alan Caruth made the point than under a certain thickness differen lt finishes can be merely distinguishable. In my direct experience there’s a little but distinguishable difference in terms of tone: shellac works for more overtones and openness; which adds something to the trebles while nitro tends to give a little more focus to the basses.
Back to the main topic, I stick with my idea that cedar and spruce have discernable carachteristics.
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