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Hey, so a while ago I'd been calling Vicente a crap player. So I recieved a lot of comments saying how I was wrong. So I decided to try listening to Vicente continously. I do not know what changed, but I have slowly seen myself liking his music more and more. Calling his music 'stupid gibberish wannabe paco' sounds extremely stupid and immature to me now, no wonder so many guys here tried correcting me. Just wanted to let you guys know, and haven't yet given Antonio Rey a listen, but I will listen to him next and see if I change my opinion about him too
Btw I do still have a small hate for Vicente just due to the fact that his music has picado every 2 seconds, picado is my bottleneck and I wish could learn his stuff
Posts: 1893
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to metalhead)
That's great that you were willing to do that. We often form opinions while exposed only to a fraction of the information available. You will surely form a positive opinion about Antonio as well, his first albums are superb and the rest you'll see.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to metalhead)
I like Vicente’s music more than Paco, though I also love Paco’s music. Vicente is a huge inspiration and why I picked up the guitar again after so many years. I connect with Vicente’s music more, though I don’t know why. His music has more emotional depth, at least for my interpretation. Sucks for me to admit as I’ll likely get a lot of backlash for my opinion.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to metalhead)
Interesting that you said he's a Paco wannabe.
Back in the day I was friends with some classical guitar students who were big fans of Paco, so I gave them Vicente's CDs to check out. They said he was too 'pop music' for them - (I think they were referring to Cuidad album an later) Now I can understand that.
So the fact that you picked up on Paco's influence on Vicente shows you have a deeper understanding, or an open ear.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
Beautiful but hard
That’s for sure. Anyone know where he got the idea to maximize use of rest strokes? As I recall, he even plays arpeggios with rest strokes. You guys have probably discussed it at some point. I’m going to take a connect-the-dots guess and say that it goes back to Niño Ricardo through Paco.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stu
quote:
Vicente is a huge inspiration and why I picked up the guitar again after so many years.
So can you play any of his music?
I got a handful of falsetas and bits under my belt from him. But in the main I still find it hard going. Beautiful but hard
Just one, it's from Poeta en la mar but not technically Flamenco, it's a great warm up to stretch out the fingers. Luciana does an awesome job of it (link below).That said I think Morente from De mi corazon al aire is likely the most beautiful Granainas I've ever heard, I did do a bit of work on that one but it's not easy. All his stuff is hard to play, thats why I dont play it, lol. Luciana does an amazing job of many of Vicente's pieces.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Norman Paul Kliman)
aren't arpeggios supposed to be played with rest strokes only though? classical uses free strokes for arpegios, flamenco uses rest strokes for all kinds of arpeggios even the sextuplets one, atleast what i do
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
ORIGINAL: metalhead
aren't arpeggios supposed to be played with rest strokes only though? classical uses free strokes for arpegios, flamenco uses rest strokes for all kinds of arpeggios even the sextuplets one, atleast what i do
yeah I struggle with fast rest stroke arpeggios, I couldn't ever shake that from my classical days. I was told rest stroke arpeggio is what you need in flamenco. Though Grisha seems to use the classical frestroke more, I dont see it slowing him down. Unless my observations are wrong.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to JasonM)
quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonM
Interesting that you said he's a Paco wannabe.
Back in the day I was friends with some classical guitar students who were big fans of Paco, so I gave them Vicente's CDs to check out. They said he was too 'pop music' for them - (I think they were referring to Cuidad album an later) Now I can understand that.
So the fact that you picked up on Paco's influence on Vicente shows you have a deeper understanding, or an open ear.
As far as his later albums, I like those also but yeah they are more mainstream and more jazz sounding. Im not a die hard traditionalist though, I just like music in general. I think him (and Antonio Rey) are driving the evolution of Flamenco though, as more traditional Flamenco seems to be dying off. Vicente is what attracted me to the genre in the first place, than it allowed me to dive deeper into Sabicas for example (whom I've never heard of prior to that). That said, I feel what Vicente is doing to the genre as a whole is a good thing.
Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Norman Paul Kliman)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Norman Paul Kliman
quote:
Beautiful but hard
That’s for sure. Anyone know where he got the idea to maximize use of rest strokes? As I recall, he even plays arpeggios with rest strokes. You guys have probably discussed it at some point. I’m going to take a connect-the-dots guess and say that it goes back to Niño Ricardo through Paco.
To be technical, there is a nice video of Paco playing Granaina where he uses apoyando ring finger stroke ONLY, for triplet melody where the melody is on the ring finger. Classical guitarists sometimes teach that for simple pieces like Spanish Romance (however they break or separate from the bass note with a delay, unlike flamenco players, and it is funny when you tell them to not do that, they can’t do it). So somewhere out there, there is a pedagogy for doing this thing, ami, where a is apoyando…before Paco I don’t know. But Vicente does the same thing, but he adds the m finger to the formula, and even the index. Far as I can tell, he is unique for doing it, and there is a good reason to NOT do it, which is the notes stop ringing when you plant, so are more separated. Anyway watch Granaina Paco (5 min) and Vicente (2:50 minute).
Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
aren't arpeggios supposed to be played with rest strokes only though
Eh? Rest strokes? Apoyando? Rest strokes, the finger coming to rest on the next string. How would you do fast arpeggios with rest strokes? I mean I know Ricardo said Paco did it with m finger. But this seems to be a remarkable moment? But fast apoyando apreggios?
Or are we talking about planting? Or am I just wrong with terminology.
This sounds wrong to me
Also it's LucianO not A. [:D
Jesús Christ. Another music video disaster from Vicente Amigo! 😭 Checking out real estate with his Mrs!?
Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to metalhead)
quote:
aren't arpeggios supposed to be played with rest strokes only though? classical uses free strokes for arpegios, flamenco uses rest strokes for all kinds of arpeggios even the sextuplets one, atleast what i do
Not always. Most of the time tirando is used so the notes ring out, for example pimami, standard arps, only thumb is rested. But there are cases where (like Vicente who is unique) repeating AMI is rested. The sound is different you can tell. To be clear about classical technique though…if you have seen Scott Tenenant Pumping nylon he describes arpegio, and he even plays Solea briefly. Classical guitar advocates a round tone on tirando, he shows “clawing at the string” as a bad tone, but that is exactly how we get the aggressive bite to flamenco arpegio, that almost sounds like apoyando strong attacks. And of course we hear his Solea is missing that element.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Ricardo)
I'm not sure if you thought I was talking about Ami being played rest strokes. Because I meant the thumb playing rest strokes in all arpeggios and that is what is done in flamenco; the thumb almost always plays a rest stroke in any kind of arpeggio
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to Stu)
quote:
Isn't that Miguel Ivan in that pic?
Yes it is (I think it’s actually Iven with an e). The other non-performer is Jingle: His real first name was Mick, but I don’t think I ever learnt what the last one was.
Posts: 1873
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to trivium91)
I feel that there are still plenty of solid traditional players-they just don't get the press. I've been listening to Paco Leon and Antonio Higuero lately-they pop up on a lot of great videos.
On this one they are both playing
quote:
ORIGINAL: trivium91
quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonM
Interesting that you said he's a Paco wannabe.
Back in the day I was friends with some classical guitar students who were big fans of Paco, so I gave them Vicente's CDs to check out. They said he was too 'pop music' for them - (I think they were referring to Cuidad album an later) Now I can understand that.
So the fact that you picked up on Paco's influence on Vicente shows you have a deeper understanding, or an open ear.
As far as his later albums, I like those also but yeah they are more mainstream and more jazz sounding. Im not a die hard traditionalist though, I just like music in general. I think him (and Antonio Rey) are driving the evolution of Flamenco though, as more traditional Flamenco seems to be dying off. Vicente is what attracted me to the genre in the first place, than it allowed me to dive deeper into Sabicas for example (whom I've never heard of prior to that). That said, I feel what Vicente is doing to the genre as a whole is a good thing.
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to metalhead)
I hate Javier Molina. What a crank poser. Javier Molina and every player that came after him is cheap jazz influenced ‘popmenco’ complete garbage nonsense that should be stricken from the flamenco guitar canon. Other flagrant and disgraceful posers were Ramon Montoya and his contemporaries. By the time another decade or two passed, flamenco is white washed into the obscurity of commercialism by Manuel Serrapi AKA ‘Sloppy Serrapi’ and the poser from up north called Sabicas. They call him Saba for short. Saba means mackerel in Japanese, and he certainly plays like a dead limp fish.
Curse that Javier Molina for spoiling the purity of the regal guitar.
Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: I change my opinion about Vicent... (in reply to estebanana)
Fuenllana was puro Flemish, after that it was all jazz. He did use a French 6 chord though.
PS> I had to edit my post above because I spotted a copyright claim by Vicente Amigo Girol....He removed his own video maybe because of the girl in the video? Or cuz we were discussing his apoyando? Either way, it is clear he follows Foro discussions. Hola Vicente!
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