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Jason McGuire has recently ventured into guitar crafting, and it's come to my attention that many within our community have previously engaged with him either by sending guitars for review, or utilizing his expertise for sound demonstrations and unbiased evaluations. Interestingly, out of his initial batch of guitars, three out of four have been described as "amazing," a claim that raises eyebrows...
This leads me to wonder if there exists a tendency among professionals and craftsmen to shy away from publicly critiquing guitars in online platforms, thereby failing to highlight potential flaws.
What are the odds of producing instruments of exceptional quality right from the start without the benefit of undergoing apprenticeship or accumulating years of meticulous study on how construction impacts a guitar's sound?
Moreover, should Jason consider forwarding his guitars to Stephen, Andy, Ethan, or any other esteemed luthiers for a comprehensive quality evaluation? Or is it imperative that a guitar's quality is affirmed through testing by a seasoned professional?
Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to thomazozo)
Interesting point. The issue is really this. Extremely cheap “junk” beater guitars, turn out to be functioning perfectly fine for professional level playing. A very painful reality for anybody that wants to hand build an instrument and put hours and hours of effort into a product that barely justifies its value as a functional tool over any cheaply massed produced equivalent. There is practically no way to compete so there has to be something more than aesthetic details that weigh in to a hand made luthier instrument…something more than the romance of heart, sweat, spirit that went into its construction vs machined parts, and a belt sander, etc. That “something” is elusive but MUST be tangible or there really is no reason to justify the thing. For me it is in the response in the trebles, when I am playing it. But little else. But it is enough for me to justify the cost of very high end instruments vs cheap factory. I don’t have fear in pointing out flaws, which I did to Felipe Conde jr, who seemed to show genuine interest in what needed to be improved. I would not have wasted my time if the thing sounded dead. Conversely in Madrid the next day, I did not bother to explain the finish was too thick on all Mariano A models, because I was not getting the “vibe” that he would have cared for my opinion either way. Obviously Luthiers need to get SOME positive feedback to feel their labor is vindicated.
Read the story of Ramirez III and Segovia. It is a frustrating back and forth for sure. In the end Ramirez failed to admit the guitar that Segovia finally accepted to concertize with (at least one of a couple designs) is known to have been created by the hands of one of his Apprentices in the workshop. And here in lies my issue with the secretive “a good luthier builds the condes”, topic that keeps going in circles. In the end there are good and bad guitars for person A or B, and they might be polar opposites. Truth is revealed in what the artists end up using on Stage most of the time.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to Ricardo)
"The last time I played for Rancapino, the only guitar available was for beach parties. It didn´t matter to Alonso and it didn´t matter to me."
I say it once, I say it twice. This is a foro flamenco guitar. It used to be a foro flamenco. For most of my life I played bad guitars. Now I play a great guitar. I am not a better player but I know that what matters in flamenco is not the guitar.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to thomazozo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: thomazozo Interestingly, out of his initial batch of guitars, three out of four have been described as "amazing," a claim that raises eyebrows...
Why? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Jason worked (still works?) at Fender making guitars and basses. Wouldn't surprise me that he could make a nice guitar early on.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to thomazozo)
Tale of two luthiers
I started out with zero exp or exposure.
Jason has a lot of experience to work with. I think just being a player at his level gives him insight to many elements someone less connected would not. I have a feeling his setup and playability is better than most based on this.
And ya, plenty of fluffing here and there but better than infighting or stabbing each other behind the back?
Jason lives in the same city as my father and I’m looking forward to playing one of his and of course let him play one of mine when I get down there!
I don’t know, perhaps it’s a curtesy in the age of information when there’s no reason to hold onto secret building technics for us builders to play each others guitars or even to buy a fellow builders guitar.
I’ll have to see if he wants to trade ;)
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to elias)
I'm not fully aware of his profession, so please excuse any lack of knowledge on my part. My reaction was primarily to the assumption that these were the first four guitars he had crafted.
Nevertheless, my main inquiry pertains to who truly holds the "authority" in assessing the craftsmanship and artistry of a musical instrument, particularly when considering the perspectives of players versus those of the makers.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to thomazozo)
Jason is someone who is exceptionally dedicated to his artistic and creative endeavors and it seems as though the guitar making bug has bitten him hard. I haven't tried one of his instruments, but I would not be at all surprised if his learning curve was much steeper than most, and his ultimate results more successful than most.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to thomazozo)
Jason’s guitars are fine. He’s been extremely supportive and generous to independent guitar makers for 25 years, now he’s one of us. I’m not at liberty to say anything publicly, I’ll leave that to him, but suffice it to say, he studied carefully to get to his first few guitars. Jason is a guitar maker in addition to being an important guitarist and composer.
Let’s not pack people into boxes based on how we perceive their interior life and how they see themselves. I’m a painter and a guitar ensemble leader, and a guitar maker. We can be masters of more than one thing, especially these disciplines that have intrinsic connections. Jason told me a long time ago he wanted to be a luthier, but the work of being an in demand flamenco guitarist took up more time and he couldn’t develop his building then. Since he himself couldn’t spend the time building 15 to 20 years ago, instead he enthusiastically supported up and coming guitar makers. Now we support him as he develops his new art form.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to elias)
quote:
ORIGINAL: elias
quote:
ORIGINAL: thomazozo Interestingly, out of his initial batch of guitars, three out of four have been described as "amazing," a claim that raises eyebrows...
Why? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Jason worked (still works?) at Fender making guitars and basses. Wouldn't surprise me that he could make a nice guitar early on.
He worked there for a while, but he said the environment was too immature to deal with. He’s got so many friends who are guitar makers that he has an automatic brain trust to consult. But really he’s just intellectually curious and studies diligently and I’m pretty sure he figured out most of it on his own.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to thomazozo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: thomazozo
I'm not fully aware of his profession, so please excuse any lack of knowledge on my part. My reaction was primarily to the assumption that these were the first four guitars he had crafted.
Nevertheless, my main inquiry pertains to who truly holds the "authority" in assessing the craftsmanship and artistry of a musical instrument, particularly when considering the perspectives of players versus those of the makers.
Basically, your mom. One of my painting teachers told me the only person who would like my paintings is my mom. My mom’s standards and artistic aesthetic cultivation is fairly high, so it didn’t bother me.
The people who have the experience to pass judgement on how good a guitar is are usually high level players for the musical concerns. And usually high level guitar makers for the visual and materials aspects. Often it’s dealers for which mixes of visual appeal and musical appeal together create a sales combination they can offer to clients. Then there is a collector who spends years cultivating a fine sense of musical and visual quality evaluations on guitars.
All these approaches are valid and sometimes agree and other times don’t agree. So you have to take the evaluations of all these approaches into mind and work out your own opinions and cultivate your own aesthetics. Along the way you make friends with all these kinds of guitar appreciators and ask them questions that contribute to your education.
Understanding guitars is a process, not a fixed thing. Just participate in the process and that is its own reward.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to thomazozo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: thomazozo
This leads me to wonder if there exists a tendency among professionals and craftsmen to shy away from publicly critiquing guitars in online platforms, thereby failing to highlight potential flaws.
What are the odds of producing instruments of exceptional quality right from the start without the benefit of undergoing apprenticeship or accumulating years of meticulous study on how construction impacts a guitar's sound?
Generally boils down to honesty in understanding where you are. It would have to be a completely horrid guitar with no redeeming sound qualities for professionals to wade into saying it’s a bad guitar. That said Jason’s guitars are fine and they are a workman like product of honest study.
The thing that guitar makers don’t like is that one guy who keeps saying they have a proprietary ‘method’ for building and it’s not any better than any other approach. Even then most people refrain from criticizing the guitars they make ( unless they are truly horrendous) and focus more on mitigating the bullsh&t impact of what the tiresome guy is interjecting into the general public.
Less information is better than heaps of speculation. Guitar makers do gossip in private and express often brutal evaluations of guitars they don’t like or building styles they object to. If you could be a fly on the wall in a open conversation between two guitar makers with a similar view point your ears would flame with a raging conflagration after hearing them tear apart guitar makers with other views than their own.
Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Basically, your mom.
My mom heard that video of myself playing Richard Jernigan’s Archangel and she said I needed to acquire it, as it was the better sounding guitar I had played.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to estebanana)
That is hilarious
As an artist and art professor, I find a connection with your posts, particularly when you share insights into your educational background. I often advise my students that they may need to create art that might not resonate with their grandmother's tastes or understanding...
When it comes to art dealers, their evaluations can sometimes be a cause for concern. My observation in the art world suggests that dealers typically represent artworks they believe they can sell. Therefore, their assessment often reflects the potential for sales rather than the inherent quality of the work. I assume this parallels the guitar world, however there may be worlds of difference between types of artwork, and not so much between guitars.
I would relish the opportunity to delve into "private gossip"—essentially, exploring the nuanced qualities of musical instruments through the eyes of a luthier or a musician who possesses a distinct perspective on what constitutes quality. It's a challenge to find precise and meaningful descriptions of the characteristics and sound qualities of instruments. The terms "good classical" or "good flamenco" guitar, for instance, fall short of conveying the rich array of attributes an instrument may have. Also many descriptions seem to veer into exaggeration, as not to offend.
While I acknowledge that there may not be definitive answers to my queries, I'd like to see reviews and evaluations that offer a more nuanced perspective, such as acknowledging that a guitar is excellent but not suited to the reviewer's personal taste. Such insights, coupled with a more thorough explanation of the reasons behind this assessment might be more valuable.
Honestly, if I had the chance to experience a variety of flamenco guitars firsthand, my curiosity might venture into a different subset of questions. However, without the means to visit a place abundant with these instruments, I'm relegated to conjuring up their quality from photos and recordings found online.
Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to thomazozo)
quote:
It's a challenge to find precise and meaningful descriptions of the characteristics and sound qualities of instruments.
Your post has elicited a lot of interesting comments and I have little to add. What makes a good guitar is in the eye (and hands and ears) of the beholder. Different players and listeners have different requirements. Guitar Salon tells me it's the visual appearance that sells them, which bothers me. To me, talking about sound characteristics is like dancing about architecture. If an instrument doesn't fall apart and sounds and plays okay, then apparently it was well constructed.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
Basically, your mom.
My mom heard that video of myself playing Richard Jernigan’s Archangel and she said I needed to acquire it, as it was the better sounding guitar I had played.
But did you listen to your mom? Nooooooooo you didn’t. Besides Jernigan probably won’t sell it. He’s over there in Austin holding it thinking “ Ricardo, you’ll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands.”
Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
Basically, your mom.
My mom heard that video of myself playing Richard Jernigan’s Archangel and she said I needed to acquire it, as it was the better sounding guitar I had played.
But did you listen to your mom? Nooooooooo you didn’t. Besides Jernigan probably won’t sell it. He’s over there in Austin holding it thinking “ Ricardo, you’ll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands.”
Well I tried some other arcangels knowing Richard would not part with it. They sucked in comparison. Perhaps one day I will find one of similar quality…my understanding is most found their way into Japan for some reason and hard to get them now.
One thing to add back on topic, is that it is hard to focus on more than one aspect of a guitar at a time. For example, in my early years I would try various guitars and go “wow! This guitar has bla bla bla! I might have to get one of these and sell my Conde….”. Then I would go home and pick up my own guitar and go “holy **** I never realized my guitar has the Same thing plus much more! I almost made a big mistake!”…and it would be a scary feeling because you realize you really need to escape your subjective self to understand what is going on with a guitar, as we tend to focus on one aspect, like volume versus balance, which tends only to be about Bass tones but gives an illusion that the instrument is stronger.
I remember going to dance class with a negra thinking it was a “canon” compared to my sort of quiet Conde Blanca. Well, 2 minutes in I was killing myself and the guitar barely sounded. I was like WTF??? I realized that a balanced mid range cuts through the noise better than a robust bass heavy “canon” guitar. This carries over into close miking guitars for live sound. The quiet or “dead” guitars you can mic very close to that sound hole and they explode at high gain. Where has very acoustically rich guitars sound horrible and are limited with how loud you can make them with a flat EQ, and by the time you have eliminated the “bad” frequencies, the guitar sound is anemic and weird…nothing like what you had started with. As a professional we have to ask ourselves, what are we paying for here?? A guitar that sounds good in my mom’s kitchen? Or a tool that functions with no headache in live situations???
Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to thomazozo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: thomazozo
According to Ethan, the guitar may only need to look good in your mom's kitchen...
Guitar Salon and similar outlets are specializing in collectible items. Not tools for heavy use. In fact they are the types driving the market and helping new luthiers to keep a price from dropping too low. If I need a tool I go to Dan Zeff, specifically looking for heavily used instruments at appropriate prices. I was thinking the place in Barcelona was Spain equivalent, at least some years back when they were unloading the workhorse guitars of flamenco maestros. Morao and Tomatito beat up condes for example sold from there. The recent drama (Mariano Conde apology) might imply they are becoming more like Guitar Salon etc.
Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Ricardo
Well I tried some other arcangels knowing Richard would not part with it. They sucked in comparison. Perhaps one day I will find one of similar quality…my understanding is most found their way into Japan for some reason and hard to get them now.
It's the only Arcangel I ever played. When I tuned it up and played the first E-major chord it blew me away.
At some point Arcangel contracted all his production to a Japanese dealer. Mine has no serial number. When Richard Brune appraised it before I bought it, he told me Arcangel sometimes built one for a player or a collector without a serial number.
This confirmed what I was told by Brian Cohen, that it had belonged to a collector. Brune told me that when he saw it there was no sign it had ever been played during the first 18 years of its life.
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to thomazozo)
Most Archangels are in Japanese bank vaults. During the boom economy years in Japan they became like a gold bar. The story is that a famous Japanese guitar maker went to Madrid and learned from Archangel, and so the great master was venerated as the teacher of the luthier who opened up a guitar shop in Tokyo and made good quality guitars for reasonable prices. But the high end connoisseurs bought Archangel’s guitars for big money.
So difficult to evaluate him as a guitar maker because he’s among the most famous makers whose guitars are rarely heard.
Posts: 14844
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Most Archangels are in Japanese bank vaults. During the boom economy years in Japan they became like a gold bar. The story is that a famous Japanese guitar maker went to Madrid and learned from Archangel, and so the great master was venerated as the teacher of the luthier who opened up a guitar shop in Tokyo and made good quality guitars for reasonable prices. But the high end connoisseurs bought Archangel’s guitars for big money.
So difficult to evaluate him as a guitar maker because he’s among the most famous makers whose guitars are rarely heard.
this finally explains why those Yamaha flamencos are so so good!
Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Luthiers - Whose opinion matters... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
estebanana
Most Archangels are in Japanese bank vaults.
The '82 Arcangel is one of only two guitars I ever bought without playing it. The dealer was going out of business, and insisted I must buy it, no return, before he shipped it to the Central Pacific where I lived.
I persuaded him to ship it to Richard Brune for an appraisal, although Brune said he and the dealer had some prior differences.
After Brune received the instrument he emailed me quoting a value near what the dealer was asking, documents to follow. He added that he hoped I didn't mind that he had played the guitar for a couple of hours, writing, "I really like this guitar."
That was good enough for me.
As soon as word got around that I had bought it, I started getting offers from Japan, ranging 15-25% more than I had paid. I bought it to play, but i could have flipped it for a quick profit if I hadn't been pleased with it.
The other guitar I bought sight unseen was the Abel Garcia I ordered after playing the 3/4-size instrument he made for his daughter. He may have offered to let me try the one I ordered to make sure I liked it. I'm sure he could have sold it promptly if I had returned it. But I was quite pleased with the instrument, and I remain so.
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