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Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green label worth restoring?   You are logged in as Guest
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silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green label ... 
It's on an auction site, estimate is £500-£1000. I can't play it before deciding. Do you think it's worth a punt for £600?

1964 Condé Hermanos Flamenco guitar; Back and sides: repaired hairline crack to treble waist, over-finished, further play wear; Top: natural spruce, general play wear; Neck: cedar; Fretboard: ebony, minor wear; Frets: minor wear; Hardware: replacement tuners; Case: period hard case; Overall condition: good for age

More Information
Hairline crack to treble side waist - approx 9cm long. This is stable to an extent, but some movement with force. 2 small minor cracks to upper bout on back near top edge. Nut width 52mm. Scale length approx 660mm. Action at 12th fret approx 3.25mm





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2024 19:20:17
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2024 19:23:17
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1965 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2024 19:25:38
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2024 19:27:19
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2024 19:30:22
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 5 2024 20:01:33
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Is this 1965 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
It’s probably better to let Echi or someone like that respond with definitive answers but, to me, £600 doesn’t seem like much for a nice old guitar, assuming there’s no issues with the action or neck. The bridge looks a little weird, but the guitar’s got a lovely plantilla. The cracks are probably less of a concern than you’re thinking. It looks like they’ve been that way for a while. I wouldn’t do any more to the back beyond stabilizing with cleats. The side crack follows the liner, so that’s not as easy to address, but it doesn’t look disastrous. The date on the label looks like it was scribbled there after the fact, so take the age with a grain of salt.

The biggest concern I’d have is it looks like the top is cracked alongside the fingerboard. If this is due to the neck pulling forward then the action might be high and you’re now getting into real work, as the guitar’s playability might be less than ideal. The cracks themselves can be addressed, however.

I’d probably buy it, I have a closet full of project guitars like that one, but I’m a sucker for stuff like this. It’s a pretty guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 2:45:09
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to RobF) 
Thank you, Rob! That's really useful. I also think it would be a lovely project, do what I can with it and then take it to Stephen Frith for the real work.

I also thought the bridge looks odd, there's not much room to lower the action on the treble side, the bone is a very odd shape.

Not too worried about the cracks on the back and side.

My concern is you think the top is cracked alongside the fingerboard. Could it just be the finish?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 10:54:38
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Is this 1965 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to RobF) 
i was thinkin the same , the label ... , hand writin not in 1965? the quality of the paper is too good for the age ? as the guitar outside is not so good?

is that the real neck or a Frankenguitar?

theres a lot going on the old guitars and/or second market , a lot of frankenguitars (ive got one..) and a lot of fake labels or real labels that dont match the guitar

its kind of choosing a 2nd hand car , if the miles matches the car for an example.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 11:17:11
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to Manitas de Lata) 
The label looks ok to me, these were generally not dated, and was probably built by a Conde apprentice or student in the workshop between 1956 and 1968 I believe. Generally cheaper materials and not as well constructed. The headstock design is correct, can't imagine it's a replacement neck.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 11:52:40
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
funny fact , the hand writin seems that was writin with a pen lacking ink so he had to make some passes on the same letter/num. and or was writin on a hard surface without some cushion.

the ink seems kind of recent
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 12:05:58
 
orsonw

Posts: 1938
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
Looks like a genuine Conde Pozuelo de Alarcón, except someone has written a date on the label after the fact. They do not come with a date.
This has the esteso headstock so is '2nd' class. The lowest '3rd' class has the rounded headstock.
Whether the guitar is any good and you'll like it, impossible to say, playability/sound could be an issue or not. If it's as described you could probably resell it for £600 if you don't like it. These days you have bad faith dealers and ebay chancers asking thousands for these Pozuelo guitars just because it says Conde on the label.

It reminds me I once had a 1966 dated but not signed low class Atocha. I sold it 10 years ago. I have owned several 1st/media luna Condes all better than that 2nd class Atocha. But still it was a good guitar I sometimes wish I had now. It played great and I liked the way it sounded recorded.
Here's an old recording I made with it using a SM57.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 12:08:32
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to orsonw) 
Thanks Orson. I'm thinking it might be risky, and they have another auction in March which might have richer pickings. This guitar was listed at £800 minimum bid in their last auction and it didn't sell.

EDIT: lovely sound, recording and playing!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 12:21:47
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
It really depends what you are after: for sure it's a nice old school guitar .
Usually these guitars are pitched around F or F sharp: those still alive are very pleasant while not as powerful as a later Conde of the 70ies or 80ies.
I have tried a guitar similar to this one which was quite dead sounding though: I suppose the workers in Pozuelo used to be not as consistent.
Actually I restored a similar guitar made in 1962 which I liked a lot: Top thickness was 2.5 mm, with a bracing of 7 bars (without the 2 closing ones) quite short behind the bridge: it's quite common to have some cracks there as the area is not well supported .

As pointed out it's a studio guitar made before 1964 in Madrid. When I say studio I mean the you will find some flaws here and there.
In this case I could see the bridge is not original and I suspect a new fretboard is needed: one side is cracked but what it's interesting to know is how thick it is at the moment: hopefully it's stable and you wouldn't need to replace it.
Is it valuable? A reasonable price would be 1800-2000 euro for a properly working guitar like that: for someone is a deal, for someone else it's not.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 17:27:30
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to Echi) 
Thank you very much, Echi, that's very helpful indeed. I'm grateful.

I am just thinking it would a nice project to clean it up and get it playing, although it could be a dud.

When you say 'bridge' do you mean just the bridge bone?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 17:34:09
 
ernandez R

Posts: 742
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to Echi) 
Etchi,

This bridge got my attention right away, it’s all wrong.

Still, would be nice to have just cause, not get carried away “restoring” or whatever. Kinda sad to see the price of these guitars go through the roof and basically out if my range, but not this one ;)

HR



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_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 18:12:12
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to ernandez R) 
Thanks Ernandez.

Can you tell me what is wrong with the bridge please?! Another shot for you.

Cheers!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 18:24:57
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
Looks legit. Price is fair IMO. Most likely this thing sounds orders of magnitude better than any guitar in its price range today. It is not built on site but from a “factory”, ie, outsourced, as implied by having some apprentice in the same city (more likely they just deal with getting them from Valencia and such). I have seen this green label on another guitar labeled “Atocha” from the same years, and it was freaking amazing sounding. Even had the old strings on which still sounded great. This guitar, if it is made in 1964, probably has strings on it from 1965! Personally I don’t need this guitar but I might buy just for the historic value. Probably could negotiate for it down a 100 pounds or so.

PS, the cracks along the fingerboard are quite normal on any guitar that has dried. However, in the blurry photo of the bridge, if it is lifting, that needs to be glued down and clamped by a luthier. You could use that to negotiate the price down, and use the actual Luthier fee, or tell the seller to have it done first.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 19:01:33
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
The bridge is obviously lifting up (it's not just a glue failure, it got deformed under the strings tension); the bridge cap is also not original, which entails that either the whole bridge has been replaced or that someone put his hands on it with some modifications (the wings look suspiciously thinned).
The fretboard is too thin also.
Anyway, if you ask me, the real question is how good it sounds: if she's a good one is worthy the repair
quote:

It is not built on site but from a “factory”
the shop in Pozuelo was in fact the only laboratory in Madrid where the Conde guitars used to be made at the time.
The guitars with the green label were definitely studio guitars (made by apprentices or in a hurry) but they were not outsourced guitars.
The rosettes used to be the same of the concert guitars the headstock was the Esteso's and the woods are still good quality woods. There was also a series of studio guitars made in Valencia with a rounded headstock, a simple rosette and a rosewood fretboard.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 19:04:19
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
Again, thank you all for your most valuable insights, I greatly appreciate your time!

Echi, (and Ernandez), thank you for pointing out the bridge issue, I thought it was a shadow. Seems obvious that's it's an issue now you've said it :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 6 2024 19:58:12
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
the guitar has multiple cracks almost everywhere , excluing neck and headstock ?

bridge has lift and come with the typical crack on top (right side) under golpeador (picture 1) or so . And i think its also the reason the fingerboard lifted (picture 8;10) along the rest , temperature and strings seems to **** up the guitar
if you see more carefull the guitar has open under , top , sides (picture 4 and 9 and others)
Action very high , and the soundhole on the left side seems to lack wood (picture 1 and 8)
red flags all over the place , seems very expensive for the condition

if was atached with a nice story , like its was from a legendary player or something like , it will be a nice piece of history , and just that.
I wouldnt expect to get a nice sound and or performance.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2024 14:59:24
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to Manitas de Lata) 
Well someone has bid £500 now, so I'm out.

EDIT: Winning Bid:540 GBP.

I hope the new owner is happy with it.

Thanks again to everyone for all your help and advice x
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2024 17:11:40
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 656
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
theres a guy selling his fathers "Rare 1969 peg head Gerundino Fernandez" for 9500 pounds negotiable .
Seems to be in very good condition , hes from uk and can ship.

Sounds great..... very old school..old vintage sound.
cant buy it , but i think its a guitar that deserve to go to a nice home and to be played by someone who can take the best of her
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2024 10:24:34
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to silddx) 
@ OrsonW
Have you other pictures to share of that guitar? The Simplicio inspired rosette looks lovely.
Basically your former guitar is the equivalent model of the guitar mentioned in this 3D. The Pozuelo Green label was used just till 1964, passing to the Atocha’s since, as the Conde opened the shop at the train station, mainly for the studio guitars made in Pozuelo. Again, it’s just a matter of labels.
You said other 1st class Conde or later years were better: I ask myself if this is a matter of evolution or a matter of quality: the guitars in the 60ties were kind of more raw sounding (I think to Morao here). In the seventies the guitars got a little mellower and more powerful.

With regard to the guitar of this topic I would have happily bought it for the price she got sold and yet I am sure she needed a lot of work. I am asking myself if the guitar got sold as someone read your post here and went looking for it. As OrsonW wrote, nowadays the 2nd hand market of flamenco guitars is quite crazy.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2024 10:25:01
 
orsonw

Posts: 1938
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to Echi) 
quote:

You said other 1st class Conde or later years were better: I ask myself if this is a matter of evolution or a matter of quality: the guitars in the 60ties were kind of more raw sounding (I think to Morao here). In the seventies the guitars got a little mellower and more powerful.


Quality and evolution, I am comparing to late 60s and early 70's media lunas.
I agree, in my experience after early 70's they got less raw, but the 60s still had power. But understand what you mean, it's a different kind of power. I currently have a 1971 Sobrinos de Esteso that is similar to late 60s, raw but still refined and powerful.

Here's some more photos of the 1966 Atocha 2nd. Less roughly built than the Pozuelo Green labels and wood quality better. But not as good wood and build as a 60's 1a. Sound not as full/complex or loud. Still this 1966 Atocha was a great guitar with good dry flamenco sound and excellent playability, set up as below:

Scale length 660mm
Width at nut 52mm
String spacing at nut 44mm
String spacing at saddle 57mm
Action (top of fret to bottom of string at 12th fret) E 2.8mm, e 2.7mm
String Height at bridge 7.5mm





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2024 11:47:53
 
orsonw

Posts: 1938
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to orsonw) 
Atocha 1966 2nd



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2024 11:48:55
 
orsonw

Posts: 1938
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to orsonw) 
Atocha 1966 2nd



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2024 11:56:33
 
orsonw

Posts: 1938
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to orsonw) 
quote:

The Simplicio inspired rosette looks lovely.


Please could you post a picture of the Simplicio?

This is one of my favourite Conde rosettes. You can see it here on a 1971. The mosaic etc.. is more precise and better made than the 1966 Atocha. Might not show up in photos but in real life it's obvious. That said, I have owned and played some roughly made later 70's media lunas too.

1971 media luna Gravina 7 Sobrinos


1966 Atocha 2nd


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2024 12:06:49
 
silddx

Posts: 570
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to orsonw) 
quote:

Here's some more photos of the 1966 Atocha 2nd


Nice looking guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2024 13:17:26
 
Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Is this 1964 Conde Hnos green la... (in reply to orsonw) 
hey interesting imperfection in that rosette. thats odd. not sure why or even how that could happen? any one shed any light?

see where i mean? count 7 crosses back from the fret board. theres a double up on one row of tiles. but how!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2024 14:37:45
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