Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
  
ernandez R
Posts: 739
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
|
 Canina- book club reading of Moors P...
|
|
|
First, sorry about the abrevitated thread title The book title is of course,
A Thousand and One Stories of Pericón de Cádiz
By José Ortiz Nuevo
Translated by John Moore
Thought we could discuss a chapter a week. I’ll have little to add as I have almost zero Flamenco experience as a Hispanic American with little cultural context.
I’ll start with the Moors forward to the translation where he writes the over reaching theme that unifies 1000&1 ( dog forgive me for the simplification of the book title) is ‘canina’ that down on the heels hunger that brings to mind skeletal scavenging street dogs…
I get it, I’ve know that hunger and the humor it takes to survive it. Anyone recall that long post I made about my car braking down and having to hitch hike in the sub zero to get to my first Covid vaccine apountment, went to the wrong place, took a cab to the right place but hours late, walked through the store after I get my jab, bought some good Spanish cheese, bottle of wine, fat green olives, wiping the salty oily brine off my fingers on a fresh begett… all this leaning against the wall of the grocery store, almost begging any passer by to share in my repast. But to experance this fully you first must know hardship and hunger.
It was at this moment when I felt, truly felt the Donde I knew what it ment to be flamenco, sure I was blessed with a pocket full of cash and a couple credit cards but none of that means F-all when you stick your thumb out on the side of the road, and nothing in this life means anything at all without having experanced canina…
Get on Amazon and order the book, let’s start chapter one next week, if you have the book let’s discuss the intro, both moors and JLON’s this week.
HR
ps. My spelling sucks, I’m way over it ;)
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 22 2023 7:30:17
 |
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Canina- book club reading of Moo... (in reply to ernandez R)
|
|
|
Some things to keep in mind, or at least I do when reading. This discussion of poverty leads one to envision that traveling caravan gypsy clan, and that from this free roaming group springs forth our flamenco music and cante. These types of people did not settle down and mix it up with payos in the region of Spain where flamenco music is concentrated. We see a mixing of a class group, we could say poor people, but also could find some work together, so I see it as a working class of sorts, and going pretty far back the integration and mixing is already well established. These are cities pretty big, and if you have seen Leblon books about Gitanos, we see the enormous concentration of the gitano population of Spain (starting from the census back in 1785), in Cadiz, Sevilla, and Malaga. Music, including this cante, manages to transcend boundaries between classes and races, as it levels the playing field of the Corazon.
The statement about politics jumps into the book a little bit, but again, in my mind is already the story of Paco de Lucia, and even our divisive social media situation today. People get on the side of some line and this seems to go way back and continue to similar degrees of intensity. PDL casually mentioned left and right hand roles on the guitar, which was interpreted politically, and he was jumped on the street and they wanted to crush his right hand for implying the Right is mindless executioner. So Pericon hid under the bed, nothing has changed even today. And looking back, maybe nothing has changed in CENTURIES. Paco admits in his last documentary, (tying in to the political thing), that when they were hungry in Cadiz, the music was a means to an end, where if he excelled he might be able to feed the family. This drove his political ideology as well, rich folk being the enemy of the poor. But suddenly Paco found himself with food in his stomach, and money in the bank, and did his socially conscious ideology force him to build a school or donate $ to Africa? NO. So feeling as a hypocrite himself, he stopped spouting any political stuff. There are haves, and have nots, and such is life.
I wanted to move forward then through the intros because they all address things we will encounter in the book. I can’t find the article but I came across an Ortiz Nuevo thing (about Romances I believe) where he expresses a distaste for the the flamencological community, where he wanted to start producing his finding, or publishing them, anonymously due to have ideas blocked then later stolen. I remember thinking what a pain in the as5. As an artist myself, who actually never put stock in the study of flamenco (there was a term I heard early on “flamencaholicos”) that would look earlier than the first audio recordings, and this was reinforced by the artists I worked with. If you can’t do palmas, what are you talking about of value in regards to the art form? First learn it the way we all have to (the hard way) then we can talk about medieval times. Over the years I have changed my view. These kind of anecdotal stories have their charm, but we actually need to look at them seriously because they are coming from minds that KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Ortiz Nuevo makes a disclaimer that this must be viewed as “impressionistic”, and should not have flamencological value interms of events and dates, etc. He is totally lying for the sake of that group of flamencoaholics that want to point to talking dogs and what not as “lets toss the baby out with the bath water here, fake news”. Well, after seeing interesting evidence that predates audio recordings, and reading books by Borrow and Estebañez Calderon, etc., I absolutely feel the OPPOSITE. That what is in here is a treasure of truth and deep meaning that needs to be taken seriously. Take the talking dog…when we get to that story, it was little more than a very realistic scenario that a dog used its basic sense of smell to find Pericon and bark at him, which, since he was guilty after all, shocked and frightened the kid. Where is the exaggeration there really? Where there is smoke, there is fire.
So I take it as “read everything with a grain of salt”, sure, but very likely a lot of this is TRUE stories told through a lens of DEEP, lucid, understanding.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 22 2023 12:43:38
|
|
RobF
Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
|
|
RE: Canina- book club reading of Moo... (in reply to ernandez R)
|
|
|
Well, I have my copy and I’d like to say count me in, but I’m not sure I can read it on a timeline. I’ll often burn through a good book pretty quickly, but in this case, if it’s anywhere near as good as “The Flamencos of Cadiz Bay”, I’ll likely want to stretch it out as long as I can and take the time to savour it. I was planning on holding off until summer, which means I’ll probably end up out of sync with the thread, although if the book is predominantly anecdotal maybe it won’t matter that much and the thread can be used as a springboard to talk about associations and insights that fall out of the events, rather than the chapters.
Regardless, I think this is a great idea, it’ll be a lot of fun, and even if I don’t have anything to contribute, I’ll be following the thread with interest.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Feb. 22 2023 16:01:47
|
|
ernandez R
Posts: 739
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
|
|
RE: Canina- book club reading of Moo... (in reply to ernandez R)
|
|
|
It’s been a bit of a fuzzy two weeks in my world so just now making the time to comment about what I’ve been thinking about the first few sections of SPdC…
First thing I’ve noticed that I lack a lot of basic context geographical and historical, normally reading on my iPad I just click on a location word and get a quick or detailed explanation but with the paper bound version I’m at a loss; just a basic technicality and I’m too engrossed to stop and type a word into my iPad anyway ;)
The context I do have is coming from a struggling financialy family and just enough ethnicity to not be considered ‘white’ in our Southern California world, our clothes were often stained knees with holes and patches, my fathers retort at the dinner table “ fill up on rice and beans” and later my single mom trying to raise me and my little sister in a HUD housing project apartment in the “Slater Slums” of Huntington Beach. No strong family ties though, no being hungry together, and no communal cultural music to vent our suffering or our lot, both Native American and Hispanic but zero cultural qualities, no history or language, my father and mothers race identification on my birth certificate says ‘WHITE’… I recall as a young teen sterling fruit off of trees to eat, eating a handful of grain we fed the cattle or dry dog food, the rabbit pellet food were concentrated alfalfa and tangy…
We had olive trees in our yard but no one thought to harvest them or brine them but whe they were green all the naiborhood kids would gather, about twenty of us, divide into two gangs and we would have wars throwing the hard green fruit at each other screaming and running around the local yards they way one would expect envy kids in any town or city during any age… The tale of Pericón and his gang brought that memory of mine into sharp focus…
That’s all for now.
BTW: I’ve never done this book club thing so just throwing out whatever comes to mind…
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 14 2023 7:19:09
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Canina- book club reading of Moo... (in reply to ernandez R)
|
|
|
Poverty, class distinction, and politics, will be a continuous theme. A 25 year old guy marries a 15 year old girl. This is a bit disturbing in modern times, but context is important of course. Gitanos still have arranged marriages, mostly kid ages like that. But in spain, as I keep pointing out, we have a class level where payo and gitano FLAMENCOS overlap, and this is not emphasized enough I find. In fact this idea that “flamenco” refers to “gypsy” people, even if only in Andalucia, is simply not right. There are no gitanos ANYWHERE, called “flamencos” that don’t do the MUSIC called flamenco, period. And of course the minority “payos” refer to themselves as “flamenco” which DOESN’T mean gypsy. That brings us to the first anecdote about flamenco. The Madrid señorito asks Pericon’s opinion as they discuss the typical origin theories amongst the artists and aficionados. He says something revealing and I am not so sure people appreciate the depth of it.
He says he heard from his friend (a very close friend as we learn) Morcilla, son of Mellizo, that “a man” (what man, payo? Foreigner? Spaniard? Andaluz?) shows “a book” to Mellizo (can Mellizo read?) that explains (in what way?) that cante flamenco comes from “scores” (partituras) arriving by ship to Cadiz in 1512. The people of Cadiz (payos? Gitanos?) find these in a bundle (broad sheet scores or books?) and subjectively choose the “best” cantes (meaning notated sung melodies that they were able to discern from the scores) and send the rest to Jerez, where people did the same (people throughout andalucia in shipyards were all musically literate?), then sent the left overs to Sevilla. And this anecdote explains why Cadiz has the BEST cante.
So the thing I think people miss is that if Pericon is lying, why would he paint his good friend in a bad light? What bad light do I mean? If it is false, why make this up about his hero Mellizo? If it was true that he heard this from Morcilla, why would Morcilla make up this lie about his father? You see, the thing is, this story totally NEGATES the creative origin of cante for both Gitanos AND Spaniards (both payo and gitano), and does absolutely no favors to anybody in terms of creation and even tradition. All it admits to is the subjective TASTES of the people of Cadiz, having first dibs on the source material. As an invented tale it robs andalusians of their cultural identity in terms of the music creation, the deep thing being discussed in the room. “It is not our creation, according to Mellizo, but it is very old”, is what the story is saying. While moor or Jewish origin does the same, at least they were ANDALUSIANS historically. This “off the boat” thing is TOTALLY different and needs to be carefully considered. For one, the mysterious “man with a book” interaction with mellizo might be something worth investigating. Why would Mellizo even believe this “man”? Something about this “book” he was shown convinced him this man had “razon”, or the book would not be part of the anecdote. Mellizo was convinced enough to pass this info down to his son, who probably asked his dad the same question Pericon asked, and we have all been asking.
Moving on, Pericon seems very honest in terms of incriminating himself quite often. It is not in a boastful way the way I read it, rather, he is ok with embarrassing himself as a “bad kid”. I think it speaks to the validity of much of his stories. Why incriminate himself? Why exaggerate? At the same time he does brag about how well he sings various cantes compared to his peers, but this is quite normal by cantaores such as Aurelio, Agujeta etc. People like Caracol come off very humble in interviews (I don’t sing better or worse than anybody, I just do it my way, etc.), but I feel it is a bit of false humility for public consumption, based on the stories of the por fia meetings in private where he and other greats have singing battles and such (putting Camaron in his place for example). Anyway, not sure how far along everybody is, but I will leave a favorite quote:
“Even though I was just a kid, I already sang good cantes: Solea, malaguena del mellizo, fandangos, alegrias, bulerias….I worked…other fiestas, particularly baptisms. Since I was so wicked, I told the kids whose families were going to have baptisms that if I sang, the baby would live to be 100; but if didn’t sing, it wouldn’t even last six months. The kids would tell their parents and I was called for all the baptisms”. 
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 14 2023 13:45:30
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Canina- book club reading of Moo... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
Anybody finished yet?
Just a general comment that for the bulk of the stories, there is a lot of comedy but it is like elementary school kid type humor. Lots of immature behavior and the constant scams. There are a few heavy topics such as prostitution, a big part of the flamenco scene back then and obviously a part of the negative view Spaniards take toward flamenco art, that we could discuss. The funny stories I enjoyed were those of like the honest guitar player who forgot the address for the gig, or when Aurelio was squeezing more money out of the client, he pipes in “we didn’t charge that much last time” getting kicked under the table “why are you kicking me??” Etc. Those were great. The personification of animals I actually did not find too exaggerated, obviously there is some truth and ridiculous things both involved with these stories.
The parts I really enjoy are about the artists, very little exaggerations in those I feel. Mellizo, Chacon, Caracol, etc. That is the real treasure of the book in the final pages. And the epilogue especially, after all the silliness of the stories, leaves me with a familiar warm and fuzzy feeling as it all rings true (cante and aficion).
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 17 2023 11:23:40
|
|
El Burdo
Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
|
|
RE: Canina- book club reading of Moo... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
I see the translator is a member of the foro, Granjuanillo. Unfortunately for me, it is the translation that is the big problem in this book.
I'd like to know from people who are more connected to the Spanish argot of older people now; is this how they talked?
It just sounds very American. Spaniards say 'Hombre' yes, but 'Man'? He sticks with 'gracia' ,'ángel' etc, why not 'Hombre'? 'Man' is too too loaded a western term, especially at the time it was translated.
There are other examples, 'Gay', 'peeing', 'it was killing us', 'Partying', 'Animals are really something'... really?
Moore may have decided to sidestep sensitivities and offensive slang but the unconvincing voice given to Pericón has murdered verisimilitude and prevented me from enjoying it as much as I would like.
I didn't start the book to just read a litany of mildly amusing anecdotes, or even hilarious ones a la David Niven. I did want to appreciate the zeitgeist of his time but anecdotes that, in their context, describe hunger and hustle from the perspective of a significant cantaor in the early part of the 20th C in an increasingly fascist country is not served by a dude, who is outta here.
I wondered if it wasn't so bad, as modern language might be a way of making more sense of Pericón's experiences to the modern ear. But if it is, it didn't work for me.
As to the material, or the 'stories'; I was hoping for historiography - don't think I got it though.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 27 2023 17:35:13
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Canina- book club reading of Moo... (in reply to El Burdo)
|
|
|
quote:
is this how they talked
If you mean “is this how they WOULD HAVE TALKED, if they were American?”, then the answer is pretty much yes, pisha. There is a lot of that 5th grader humor and slang that adults maintain. I am not sure if you are aware but there are SOME small group of Americans that talk that way as adults. Many of my Latin American friends have trouble translating the Andaluz. Just like Americans can’t understand Brits at times (I always put on subtitles if the movie has thick British accents going on). There is the historic fiction by Paco Sevilla that has some “cringy” language, but it is more of an invention than a translation. But this guy’s Pericon book sounds pretty good to me, based on my Andaluz friends that speak English. I just worked with Ismael Fernandez in DC and his wife speaks English pretty good, but I had to help them a few times with tranlsation. He frequently called out to me “oye, maricon!, tre por arriba!”, (pretty much: “hey, Fag!, put the capo on 3, E Phrygian!), and I would look at her face (to see if she was surprised at her husband insulting a guitar player he hardly knows), and no, she was unaffected. I later told this to a colleague that works with him, and they confirmed he just calls everybody that way.
So not only yes they used to talk like immature 5th grade boys, but many still do.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 28 2023 14:48:47
|
|
El Burdo
Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
|
|
RE: Canina- book club reading of Moo... (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
If you mean “is this how they WOULD HAVE TALKED, if they were American?”,
Nah. It was more
'As we left the venta, the señorito pinched my cheek.
"Maravilloso, cabrónes!".
I gave him 'smooth sailing', and departed'.
It's not the childishness, plenty of that around, I just can't believe an already mature Spanish flamenco, pre post war US cultural imperialism, sounds like a dude.
"Well...you see, it's that he ran real fast". No, no.
To be slightly fairer, I did have trouble looking for a couple of quotes, so it can't be too bad, just enough to ruin the f* book.
I also was intrigued at the way prostitution was considered acceptable, e'en unto the sacred Flamencos of Cadiz Bay. Howson's casual remarks on leaving a brothel outline the time and place (and person) both wittingly and unwittingly.
Oh well, might as well start reading Goodbye, hunchbacked a/hole!...
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 28 2023 21:58:18
|
|
ernandez R
Posts: 739
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
|
|
RE: Canina- book club reading of Moo... (in reply to estebanana)
|
|
|
I had a similar experience when I found outside a used bookstore a 1914 paperback translation of Destovesky’s The Idiot, years later I picked up a copy in an airport bookstore and after a couple chapters it occurred to me that I must be reading a different translation. I have no idea who wrote the first one I read but guessing in this day and age I could goggle about some and figure it out.
Readings Moors translation I got the feeling certain sections were tamed a bit, whitewashed if you will, but with almost zero Spanish language skills who am I to judge.
One thing I figured out about different cultures is not to be too quick to judge, or rather, not to judge at all, only remain more aware that there will be differences that today seem distasteful if taken out of context.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date May 29 2023 7:08:00
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.09375 secs.
|
Printable Version
