Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez

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ernandez R -> Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Feb. 22 2023 7:30:17)
First, sorry about the abrevitated thread title The book title is of course, A Thousand and One Stories of Pericón de Cádiz By José Ortiz Nuevo Translated by John Moore Thought we could discuss a chapter a week. I’ll have little to add as I have almost zero Flamenco experience as a Hispanic American with little cultural context. I’ll start with the Moors forward to the translation where he writes the over reaching theme that unifies 1000&1 ( dog forgive me for the simplification of the book title) is ‘canina’ that down on the heels hunger that brings to mind skeletal scavenging street dogs… I get it, I’ve know that hunger and the humor it takes to survive it. Anyone recall that long post I made about my car braking down and having to hitch hike in the sub zero to get to my first Covid vaccine apountment, went to the wrong place, took a cab to the right place but hours late, walked through the store after I get my jab, bought some good Spanish cheese, bottle of wine, fat green olives, wiping the salty oily brine off my fingers on a fresh begett… all this leaning against the wall of the grocery store, almost begging any passer by to share in my repast. But to experance this fully you first must know hardship and hunger. It was at this moment when I felt, truly felt the Donde I knew what it ment to be flamenco, sure I was blessed with a pocket full of cash and a couple credit cards but none of that means F-all when you stick your thumb out on the side of the road, and nothing in this life means anything at all without having experanced canina… Get on Amazon and order the book, let’s start chapter one next week, if you have the book let’s discuss the intro, both moors and JLON’s this week. HR ps. My spelling sucks, I’m way over it ;)

Ricardo -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Feb. 22 2023 12:43:38)
Some things to keep in mind, or at least I do when reading. This discussion of poverty leads one to envision that traveling caravan gypsy clan, and that from this free roaming group springs forth our flamenco music and cante. These types of people did not settle down and mix it up with payos in the region of Spain where flamenco music is concentrated. We see a mixing of a class group, we could say poor people, but also could find some work together, so I see it as a working class of sorts, and going pretty far back the integration and mixing is already well established. These are cities pretty big, and if you have seen Leblon books about Gitanos, we see the enormous concentration of the gitano population of Spain (starting from the census back in 1785), in Cadiz, Sevilla, and Malaga. Music, including this cante, manages to transcend boundaries between classes and races, as it levels the playing field of the Corazon. The statement about politics jumps into the book a little bit, but again, in my mind is already the story of Paco de Lucia, and even our divisive social media situation today. People get on the side of some line and this seems to go way back and continue to similar degrees of intensity. PDL casually mentioned left and right hand roles on the guitar, which was interpreted politically, and he was jumped on the street and they wanted to crush his right hand for implying the Right is mindless executioner. So Pericon hid under the bed, nothing has changed even today. And looking back, maybe nothing has changed in CENTURIES. Paco admits in his last documentary, (tying in to the political thing), that when they were hungry in Cadiz, the music was a means to an end, where if he excelled he might be able to feed the family. This drove his political ideology as well, rich folk being the enemy of the poor. But suddenly Paco found himself with food in his stomach, and money in the bank, and did his socially conscious ideology force him to build a school or donate $ to Africa? NO. So feeling as a hypocrite himself, he stopped spouting any political stuff. There are haves, and have nots, and such is life. I wanted to move forward then through the intros because they all address things we will encounter in the book. I can’t find the article but I came across an Ortiz Nuevo thing (about Romances I believe) where he expresses a distaste for the the flamencological community, where he wanted to start producing his finding, or publishing them, anonymously due to have ideas blocked then later stolen. I remember thinking what a pain in the as5. As an artist myself, who actually never put stock in the study of flamenco (there was a term I heard early on “flamencaholicos”) that would look earlier than the first audio recordings, and this was reinforced by the artists I worked with. If you can’t do palmas, what are you talking about of value in regards to the art form? First learn it the way we all have to (the hard way) then we can talk about medieval times. Over the years I have changed my view. These kind of anecdotal stories have their charm, but we actually need to look at them seriously because they are coming from minds that KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Ortiz Nuevo makes a disclaimer that this must be viewed as “impressionistic”, and should not have flamencological value interms of events and dates, etc. He is totally lying for the sake of that group of flamencoaholics that want to point to talking dogs and what not as “lets toss the baby out with the bath water here, fake news”. Well, after seeing interesting evidence that predates audio recordings, and reading books by Borrow and Estebañez Calderon, etc., I absolutely feel the OPPOSITE. That what is in here is a treasure of truth and deep meaning that needs to be taken seriously. Take the talking dog…when we get to that story, it was little more than a very realistic scenario that a dog used its basic sense of smell to find Pericon and bark at him, which, since he was guilty after all, shocked and frightened the kid. Where is the exaggeration there really? Where there is smoke, there is fire. So I take it as “read everything with a grain of salt”, sure, but very likely a lot of this is TRUE stories told through a lens of DEEP, lucid, understanding.

RobF -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Feb. 22 2023 16:01:47)
Well, I have my copy and I’d like to say count me in, but I’m not sure I can read it on a timeline. I’ll often burn through a good book pretty quickly, but in this case, if it’s anywhere near as good as “The Flamencos of Cadiz Bay”, I’ll likely want to stretch it out as long as I can and take the time to savour it. I was planning on holding off until summer, which means I’ll probably end up out of sync with the thread, although if the book is predominantly anecdotal maybe it won’t matter that much and the thread can be used as a springboard to talk about associations and insights that fall out of the events, rather than the chapters. Regardless, I think this is a great idea, it’ll be a lot of fun, and even if I don’t have anything to contribute, I’ll be following the thread with interest.

ernandez R -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Mar. 14 2023 6:53:27)
Hay Rob, we read up here in Alaska during the winter, got too much to get done sitting the summer to read ;) Had hoped a few others might get the book and chime in, except for Ricardo, but crickets. I don’t really have a lot to add myself… HR

ernandez R -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Mar. 14 2023 6:55:59)
Ricardo, Thanx for your input. And ya, with a grain of salt for sure.

ernandez R -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Mar. 14 2023 7:19:09)
It’s been a bit of a fuzzy two weeks in my world so just now making the time to comment about what I’ve been thinking about the first few sections of SPdC… First thing I’ve noticed that I lack a lot of basic context geographical and historical, normally reading on my iPad I just click on a location word and get a quick or detailed explanation but with the paper bound version I’m at a loss; just a basic technicality and I’m too engrossed to stop and type a word into my iPad anyway ;) The context I do have is coming from a struggling financialy family and just enough ethnicity to not be considered ‘white’ in our Southern California world, our clothes were often stained knees with holes and patches, my fathers retort at the dinner table “ fill up on rice and beans” and later my single mom trying to raise me and my little sister in a HUD housing project apartment in the “Slater Slums” of Huntington Beach. No strong family ties though, no being hungry together, and no communal cultural music to vent our suffering or our lot, both Native American and Hispanic but zero cultural qualities, no history or language, my father and mothers race identification on my birth certificate says ‘WHITE’… I recall as a young teen sterling fruit off of trees to eat, eating a handful of grain we fed the cattle or dry dog food, the rabbit pellet food were concentrated alfalfa and tangy… We had olive trees in our yard but no one thought to harvest them or brine them but whe they were green all the naiborhood kids would gather, about twenty of us, divide into two gangs and we would have wars throwing the hard green fruit at each other screaming and running around the local yards they way one would expect envy kids in any town or city during any age… The tale of Pericón and his gang brought that memory of mine into sharp focus… That’s all for now. BTW: I’ve never done this book club thing so just throwing out whatever comes to mind… HR

Ricardo -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Mar. 14 2023 13:45:30)
Poverty, class distinction, and politics, will be a continuous theme. A 25 year old guy marries a 15 year old girl. This is a bit disturbing in modern times, but context is important of course. Gitanos still have arranged marriages, mostly kid ages like that. But in spain, as I keep pointing out, we have a class level where payo and gitano FLAMENCOS overlap, and this is not emphasized enough I find. In fact this idea that “flamenco” refers to “gypsy” people, even if only in Andalucia, is simply not right. There are no gitanos ANYWHERE, called “flamencos” that don’t do the MUSIC called flamenco, period. And of course the minority “payos” refer to themselves as “flamenco” which DOESN’T mean gypsy. That brings us to the first anecdote about flamenco. The Madrid señorito asks Pericon’s opinion as they discuss the typical origin theories amongst the artists and aficionados. He says something revealing and I am not so sure people appreciate the depth of it. He says he heard from his friend (a very close friend as we learn) Morcilla, son of Mellizo, that “a man” (what man, payo? Foreigner? Spaniard? Andaluz?) shows “a book” to Mellizo (can Mellizo read?) that explains (in what way?) that cante flamenco comes from “scores” (partituras) arriving by ship to Cadiz in 1512. The people of Cadiz (payos? Gitanos?) find these in a bundle (broad sheet scores or books?) and subjectively choose the “best” cantes (meaning notated sung melodies that they were able to discern from the scores) and send the rest to Jerez, where people did the same (people throughout andalucia in shipyards were all musically literate?), then sent the left overs to Sevilla. And this anecdote explains why Cadiz has the BEST cante. So the thing I think people miss is that if Pericon is lying, why would he paint his good friend in a bad light? What bad light do I mean? If it is false, why make this up about his hero Mellizo? If it was true that he heard this from Morcilla, why would Morcilla make up this lie about his father? You see, the thing is, this story totally NEGATES the creative origin of cante for both Gitanos AND Spaniards (both payo and gitano), and does absolutely no favors to anybody in terms of creation and even tradition. All it admits to is the subjective TASTES of the people of Cadiz, having first dibs on the source material. As an invented tale it robs andalusians of their cultural identity in terms of the music creation, the deep thing being discussed in the room. “It is not our creation, according to Mellizo, but it is very old”, is what the story is saying. While moor or Jewish origin does the same, at least they were ANDALUSIANS historically. This “off the boat” thing is TOTALLY different and needs to be carefully considered. For one, the mysterious “man with a book” interaction with mellizo might be something worth investigating. Why would Mellizo even believe this “man”? Something about this “book” he was shown convinced him this man had “razon”, or the book would not be part of the anecdote. Mellizo was convinced enough to pass this info down to his son, who probably asked his dad the same question Pericon asked, and we have all been asking. Moving on, Pericon seems very honest in terms of incriminating himself quite often. It is not in a boastful way the way I read it, rather, he is ok with embarrassing himself as a “bad kid”. I think it speaks to the validity of much of his stories. Why incriminate himself? Why exaggerate? At the same time he does brag about how well he sings various cantes compared to his peers, but this is quite normal by cantaores such as Aurelio, Agujeta etc. People like Caracol come off very humble in interviews (I don’t sing better or worse than anybody, I just do it my way, etc.), but I feel it is a bit of false humility for public consumption, based on the stories of the por fia meetings in private where he and other greats have singing battles and such (putting Camaron in his place for example). Anyway, not sure how far along everybody is, but I will leave a favorite quote: “Even though I was just a kid, I already sang good cantes: Solea, malaguena del mellizo, fandangos, alegrias, bulerias….I worked…other fiestas, particularly baptisms. Since I was so wicked, I told the kids whose families were going to have baptisms that if I sang, the baby would live to be 100; but if didn’t sing, it wouldn’t even last six months. The kids would tell their parents and I was called for all the baptisms”. [:D][:D][:D]

Ricardo -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Mar. 17 2023 11:23:40)
Anybody finished yet? Just a general comment that for the bulk of the stories, there is a lot of comedy but it is like elementary school kid type humor. Lots of immature behavior and the constant scams. There are a few heavy topics such as prostitution, a big part of the flamenco scene back then and obviously a part of the negative view Spaniards take toward flamenco art, that we could discuss. The funny stories I enjoyed were those of like the honest guitar player who forgot the address for the gig, or when Aurelio was squeezing more money out of the client, he pipes in “we didn’t charge that much last time” getting kicked under the table “why are you kicking me??” Etc. Those were great. The personification of animals I actually did not find too exaggerated, obviously there is some truth and ridiculous things both involved with these stories. The parts I really enjoy are about the artists, very little exaggerations in those I feel. Mellizo, Chacon, Caracol, etc. That is the real treasure of the book in the final pages. And the epilogue especially, after all the silliness of the stories, leaves me with a familiar warm and fuzzy feeling as it all rings true (cante and aficion).

ernandez R -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Apr. 4 2023 2:51:10)
Just made my way through page 110 Next section is titled Death… so decided to stop here for the moment, laughing my ass off at the hi-jinks on a group surviving on humor if little else. And the scams, always angling for a penny here and there, **** I want to round up a buddy and work that tooth pulling gig at all the local establishments just for the humor or rather farce of it. !Olé! I noted the emplied prostitution here and there and how the mentioned the better lady singers would do a jerga any more or one they got maried etc. I sat down with a cold SN Pale Ale, feet up and laughed my way through a few pages… HR Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

ernandez R -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Apr. 4 2023 2:52:11)
Pity we could get a few others to read along…

RobF -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Apr. 4 2023 4:11:20)
I’m starting in a couple of weeks when the weather gets better. I like reading outside. :) Sounds like a great read!

ernandez R -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Apr. 4 2023 6:28:34)
As you can see, still almost three feet of snow on the ground, but chilling in our sun/garden room… was 90f yesterday when the sun was out. HR

Ricardo -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Apr. 4 2023 11:48:34)
quote: I noted the emplied prostitution here and there and how the mentioned the better lady singers would do a jerga any more or one they got maried etc. Right. In the modern era these old ladies start singing as pros after their husbands are gone and say things like “I had to take care of the kids, how was I supposed to do fiestas?”, leaving us with this sense of overbearing “machismo”, as if an over protective or jealous husband keeping the trapped song bird at home barefoot and pregnant. But the truth turns out to be a bit darker I guess, as we learn these ladies have traditionally been spared a life full of dangerous or at least awkward situations. Living in the “me too” era, we have to ask ourselves, are things much different today?

RobF -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (Apr. 15 2023 23:05:04)
Well, HR, I’ve finally started it. I like how it’s being told in the first person by Pericón himself, as it gives a totally different perspective from, say for example, The Flamencos of Cádiz Bay. I also like how it’s presented as a bunch of short anecdotes, it’s perfect for my style of summer reading as I like to throw a book in my backpack and then I can grab a spot pretty well anywhere and take a break for a short read while going about my day. I’m in no hurry to finish it, I’ll play it out and savour it instead. There’s not so many books like this out there. Have you finished it yet? How did you enjoy it as a read?

RobF -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 12 2023 21:30:30)
Just finished the book. Well worth reading and it actually is a bargain on Amazon. For some context, here’s the Rito y Geografía segment on him. It’s nice to hear the voice behind the stories. I turned on the English subtitles but not sure if it’ll carry over the link.

ernandez R -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 16 2023 3:15:45)
Glad you liked it, I set it down mid way through cause I got busy etc, think I’ll open it back up this week, snow still on the ground in patches but it’s almost gone, the mosquitoes are back but so are the swallows in force sipping around the yard and nesting in the many boxes we have for them… HR

Ricardo -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 16 2023 14:02:58)
quote: ORIGINAL: RobF Just finished the book. Well worth reading and it actually is a bargain on Amazon. For some context, here’s the Rito y Geografía segment on him. It’s nice to hear the voice behind the stories. I turned on the English subtitles but not sure if it’ll carry over the link. At 23 min he mentions the anecdote about Mellizo and his malagueña (as told to him by Caracol’s father). Later he sings media Granaina as the first letra and then the Malagueña Chico (as apposed to the “doble” that has some higher pitch notes). Aurelio also does this. I suspect Mellizo himself was probably doing this too. One of my favorite versions was by Terremoto jr, where he does the first and second line of verses as the Chico style, then the 3rd through 6 as the “doble” with the high notes. It is very dramatic that way. Somewhere a while back was a newspaper article where someone claimed that Mellizo was weak later in life and developed the chico version with lower pitches because he couldn’t reach up to the high notes in his old age. It is interesting because it is basically like a diatonic third harmony underneath the “doble” higher pitch notes. Here are some letras and more info: https://depaloenpalo.wordpress.com/2016/08/19/letras-por-malaguenas-del-mellizo/

El Burdo -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 27 2023 17:35:13)
I see the translator is a member of the foro, Granjuanillo. Unfortunately for me, it is the translation that is the big problem in this book. I'd like to know from people who are more connected to the Spanish argot of older people now; is this how they talked? It just sounds very American. Spaniards say 'Hombre' yes, but 'Man'? He sticks with 'gracia' ,'ángel' etc, why not 'Hombre'? 'Man' is too too loaded a western term, especially at the time it was translated. There are other examples, 'Gay', 'peeing', 'it was killing us', 'Partying', 'Animals are really something'... really? Moore may have decided to sidestep sensitivities and offensive slang but the unconvincing voice given to Pericón has murdered verisimilitude and prevented me from enjoying it as much as I would like. I didn't start the book to just read a litany of mildly amusing anecdotes, or even hilarious ones a la David Niven. I did want to appreciate the zeitgeist of his time but anecdotes that, in their context, describe hunger and hustle from the perspective of a significant cantaor in the early part of the 20th C in an increasingly fascist country is not served by a dude, who is outta here. I wondered if it wasn't so bad, as modern language might be a way of making more sense of Pericón's experiences to the modern ear. But if it is, it didn't work for me. As to the material, or the 'stories'; I was hoping for historiography - don't think I got it though.

Morante -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 27 2023 17:54:54)
Aurelio sang a granaina as an entrada to the Malagueña.

Morante -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 27 2023 19:17:38)
John Moore speaks very good Spanish, knows a lot about flamenco and plays guitar well. What he is trying to translate is not Castellano, but cachondeo gaditano, which was dictated to and edited by Ortiz Nuevo. The translation is aimed at non Spanish speakers and has been well received. I would have no interest in reading it: neither would I have interest in a Spanish translation of Flamencos of Cádiz Bay. We should accept this translation for what it is. If you understand Spanish, read the original.

Ricardo -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 28 2023 14:48:47)
quote: is this how they talked If you mean “is this how they WOULD HAVE TALKED, if they were American?”, then the answer is pretty much yes, pisha. There is a lot of that 5th grader humor and slang that adults maintain. I am not sure if you are aware but there are SOME small group of Americans that talk that way as adults. Many of my Latin American friends have trouble translating the Andaluz. Just like Americans can’t understand Brits at times (I always put on subtitles if the movie has thick British accents going on). There is the historic fiction by Paco Sevilla that has some “cringy” language, but it is more of an invention than a translation. But this guy’s Pericon book sounds pretty good to me, based on my Andaluz friends that speak English. I just worked with Ismael Fernandez in DC and his wife speaks English pretty good, but I had to help them a few times with tranlsation. He frequently called out to me “oye, maricon!, tre por arriba!”, (pretty much: “hey, Fag!, put the capo on 3, E Phrygian!), and I would look at her face (to see if she was surprised at her husband insulting a guitar player he hardly knows), and no, she was unaffected. I later told this to a colleague that works with him, and they confirmed he just calls everybody that way. So not only yes they used to talk like immature 5th grade boys, but many still do.

Morante -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 28 2023 16:39:37)
quote: I later told this to a colleague that works with him, and they confirmed he just calls everybody that way. Very true. Los de los barrios seldom end a sentence without pisha o coño. I heard a mother in la Caleta calling a 4 year old out of the water: "Sal del agua, chocho". Así se aprende. Eso es mi Andalucía profunda de la gracia y la guasa: I wouldn't change it for anywhere[:D]

Morante -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 28 2023 18:51:16)
quote: oye, maricon!, tre por arriba!”, The correct answer would be "Maricón tú, estás seguro que puedes lllegar en er tre? No sería mejor er do?

kitarist -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 28 2023 19:00:25)
quote: ORIGINAL: Morante quote: oye, maricon!, tre por arriba!”, The correct answer would be "Maricón tú, estás seguro que puedes lllegar en er tre? No sería mejor er do? [:D][:D][:D]

El Burdo -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 28 2023 21:58:18)
quote: If you mean “is this how they WOULD HAVE TALKED, if they were American?”, Nah. It was more 'As we left the venta, the señorito pinched my cheek. "Maravilloso, cabrónes!". I gave him 'smooth sailing', and departed'. It's not the childishness, plenty of that around, I just can't believe an already mature Spanish flamenco, pre post war US cultural imperialism, sounds like a dude. "Well...you see, it's that he ran real fast". No, no. To be slightly fairer, I did have trouble looking for a couple of quotes, so it can't be too bad, just enough to ruin the f* book. I also was intrigued at the way prostitution was considered acceptable, e'en unto the sacred Flamencos of Cadiz Bay. Howson's casual remarks on leaving a brothel outline the time and place (and person) both wittingly and unwittingly. Oh well, might as well start reading Goodbye, hunchbacked a/hole!...

RobF -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 28 2023 23:53:38)
This is what book clubs are supposed to be about. It can’t all be gold stars and praise. I enjoyed the book but I have to admit I wasn’t reading it with much of a critical eye. That being said, I still think it’s a bargain and worthwhile reading. Regardless of the narrative style of the translation, the stories provide insight into a bygone era and have historical relevance. Even tall tales and out and out bald-faced lies have to be based upon some measure of substance to actually succeed, if only in providing a plausible setting. In that sense, the vignettes give insight into the character of the narrator and his subjects and, while some of the events may stretch credibility, the reactions to them are always human and relatable. I liked it. Morante makes a good point about reading things in their native language. I really enjoyed The Flamencos of Cádiz Bay, but I wonder if a Spanish translation of it could even work at all.

estebanana -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 29 2023 6:42:31)
The translations of Murasaki Shikibu’s ‘Tale of Genji’ rest on two polar opposite sides of how a non Japanese speaker would understand a dialect of Japanese from the 11th century. The first translator was Arthur Whaley, his version is pumped up by elaborations on the direct translation so it gives a later day reader a sense of the gossipy soap opera aspect of the life of the shining prince. Next big translator was Edward Siedensticker whose translating is straight ahead and mostly undoctored up for modern readers. It’s considered more hardcore and requires some background reading to learn about customs and context so the princes adventures and quests make sense. Whaley included that part in his text, Ed didn’t. For making up the difference you have to go to another book called The World of The Shining Prince by a third author called Ivan Morris, in which he explains how the world of the Heian Court worked in the years of Lady Murasaki. So reading translations isn’t for the lazy, you have to dig harder and deeper to find the shining gold.

ernandez R -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 29 2023 7:08:00)
I had a similar experience when I found outside a used bookstore a 1914 paperback translation of Destovesky’s The Idiot, years later I picked up a copy in an airport bookstore and after a couple chapters it occurred to me that I must be reading a different translation. I have no idea who wrote the first one I read but guessing in this day and age I could goggle about some and figure it out. Readings Moors translation I got the feeling certain sections were tamed a bit, whitewashed if you will, but with almost zero Spanish language skills who am I to judge. One thing I figured out about different cultures is not to be too quick to judge, or rather, not to judge at all, only remain more aware that there will be differences that today seem distasteful if taken out of context. HR

Richard Jernigan -> Deleted (May 29 2023 17:57:03)
..

estebanana -> RE: Canina- book club reading of Moors Pericón de Cortez (May 30 2023 1:26:18)
quote: ORIGINAL: ernandez R I had a similar experience when I found outside a used bookstore a 1914 paperback translation of Destovesky’s The Idiot, years later I picked up a copy in an airport bookstore and after a couple chapters it occurred to me that I must be reading a different translation. I have no idea who wrote the first one I read but guessing in this day and age I could goggle about some and figure it out. Readings Moors translation I got the feeling certain sections were tamed a bit, whitewashed if you will, but with almost zero Spanish language skills who am I to judge. One thing I figured out about different cultures is not to be too quick to judge, or rather, not to judge at all, only remain more aware that there will be differences that today seem distasteful if taken out of context. HR I tend to go easy on translators because it’s such a difficult and often unacknowledged task. The translator is saddled with the problem I described between Whaley and Siedensticker ( Schaunstucker? It must be large.) They have to negotiate between a literal translation that’s including idiomatic speech, slang, jargon and cultural nuance then flip it around so it reflects both accuracy in meaning and is seasoned up to taste like the original as it is spat off the tongue of a word chewing Andalusian good ok’ boy. Last year I translated the text for a shochu distilleries website which covered everything from ingredients and process of making shochu to the history of shochu distribution and conveyance after the laws governing shochu distillation were codified in the late 19th century. It was difficult. My cap is off and I bow to any thoughtful translator.

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