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At first I was like what the heck kind of solea is that?? And then I heard the Pañuelo and tres rosas line. We’ve never had the Pañuelo discussion on foro. I remember how Pohren said the ladies would use chicken blood…just in case.
Because the cante which is considered as real cante by good aficionados comes from an epoch when in Catholic Spain the man put a pillow over his wifes face during the act of procreation...
Because the cante which is considered as real cante by good aficionados comes from an epoch when in Catholic Spain the man put a pillow over his wifes face during the act of procreation...
Yeah right. That’s bull-sh&t. Ever dated a Catholic school girl?
Not to mention that flamenco attracted all kinds of proclivities of sexuality in its performers and could be a scene of veiled sexual solicitation. I can’t even begin to separate Catholic toxic male control language from realities of sex lives.
Gitano traditions are not much different than any others that value young female virginity. I am close to several modern Gitano communities and I can assure you the sexual revolution Of the 60s in USA has not affected them. They still have arranged marriages. I realized that Much of cante letras regarding love gone wrong relates to this pre-arranged issue (same as Modern INdian couples that find themselves in arrangements made by old-fashioned families). Female virginity Is STILL highly valued despite its unrealistic implications in the modern age.
Here is one case. Two close gypsy friends marry their kids. Being so close, the two kids felt More like brother and sister. Their post wedding experience was a nightmare. They soon agreed That having children was unrealistic and told their parents they would be divorcing. The girl’s dad demanded return of all Wedding expense as his daughter is considered “damaged goods”. As you Can imagine the friendship was ruined as well. And it is not only about female fidelity. I have another Friend whose dad was conspicuously absent from what would be his grandsons huge gypsy wedding. When I inquired it seems grandpa had strayed and it is basically a “blackballed” situation, doesn’t matter If you are a super important member of the family.
So this antiquated traditional practice thing is no joke. also this message will eventually self destruct to protect the innocent. Please don’t grab quotes
…also this message will eventually self destruct to protect the innocent. Please don’t grab quotes
Oh man…the temptation…
I’ve got to admit, though, while I wouldn’t have put it quite the same way as mecmac (I would need way too many edits to figure out exactly how I’d put it), similar thoughts did cross my mind.
P.S. Morante, can you fix your dam link, lol, it’s two and a half miles long and it’s destroying the page! (PPS Don’t copy this, I’ll remove the postscript once it’s done)
No quotes grabbed. The idea that cante and premarital virginity are on the wane and related is a strange comparison. That’s all I’m saying. Maybe women should be oppressed more today, that would for sure make cante better, yes sirree. Everyone would be singing much better and without those pop music letras seeping in if only we’d put more women under chastity laws and shame. 😂
Everyone would be singing much better and without those pop music letras seeping in if only we’d put more women under chastity laws and shame.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think that women or men were chastier in old times. Only society was more hippocrit on sexualtiy. And the flamenco letra is best placed to denounce this. Two examples: virgen de la merced si mi gustito logré un habito voy a romper quisiera verte y hablarte quisiera cojerte sola y satisfacciones darte
Nowadays, society is certainly hippocrit on other issues, meanwhile the gitanos stick a bit to the old days.
Traditions always seem like oppression to outsiders, as they are often weird or unthinkable In other contexts. Like taking my boots off at a Japanese person’s house, wtf??? But honestly, take Rosalia. I think her use of autotune on the cante Is more sinful than the fact that she will fail to produce 3 rosas on her Pañuelo on her Wedding day. . In fact it should be the 11th commandment god missed, “Thought shalt not use autotune for thy vocals….unless it is like, you know, just an Effect that sounds digital and cool”.
Traditions always seem like oppression to outsiders, as they are often weird or unthinkable In other contexts. Like taking my boots off at a Japanese person’s house, wtf??? But honestly, take Rosalia. I think her use of autotune on the cante Is more sinful than the fact that she will fail to produce 3 rosas on her Pañuelo on her Wedding day. . In fact it should be the 11th commandment god missed, “Thought shalt not use autotune for thy vocals….unless it is like, you know, just an Effect that sounds digital and cool”.
Yes traditions seem like oppression to outsiders…. And insiders too.
The point is that women’s bodily autonomy has absolutely zero to do with the success or failure of cante to be perpetuated.
When my aunt worked at state dept he was assigned to Iraq and Pakistan for various durations. In both situations she worked as part of a task force that gave aid to child brides, a group working with Dept of State to provide support and assistance to young girls who wanted to be emancipated from ‘traditional’ entrapment in marriages they didn’t consent to.
Really it’s women who have the final say on what’s culturally appropriate in terms of their bodies and lives, not the over lay of a patriarchal system of control. If a girl seeks emancipation from being forced to marry some old fart it’s her human right - human right- to seek emancipation.
Anyone want to argue with me on this is going to get a full ass kicking so drop the arguments now or face my wrath. Seriously.
I don’t care what culture you want to tip toe around.
——-
Auto tune is a crime against human rights as well. As a listener of fine musics it’s my human right to hear which singers can sing in tune on their own and which suck eggs.
AND WILL SOMEONE PLEASE FIX THE WRAPPING IN THIS GIDFAMMED THEAD!!
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Traditions always seem like oppression to outsiders, as they are often weird or unthinkable In other contexts. Like taking my boots off at a Japanese person’s house
that analogy is about as good as morante's url comprehension.
I don’t care what culture you want to tip toe around.
You are preaching to the Choir here. However, if you read Pericon’s book (a recent thread about it), We see what happened to the many of the un betrothed women in old days. And suddenly it makes Sense why the great cantaoras disappear from the scene until they are old and the husband has Passed away. It used to make me angry until I read that little tid bit of context. It would apply To other cultures as well. Methods, madness, lesser of two evils, etc.
To Chester about my poor boots analogy…well, I guess you never owned a nice pair of boots? As if this URL issue never occurred in a thread before??? Really guys???
I've written before that I have business relationships with several American gypsy families. I done business with them for 40 over years. I'm doing some business with the grand kids of some of the old timers I sold to years ago.
I guess I'm grandfathered in as a trusted supplier because when I had a dispute with one of the grand kids, an elder told him to STFU and pay me, which he did, along with offering an apology.
An interesting story I heard was about a young wife who was "stolen" by another gypsy. Ronnie, a guy in his 40's who I've known since he was a kid, is an elder now and he explained that if the girl was returned with 25k, all would be forgiven. If he wanted to keep her, the cost would be 150k.
I have no idea how it played out, but none of them can sing a lick. I find them to be the most singular culture I've run across in my career of dealing with people from all walks of life. I can relate to some of their lifestyle choices, while others are way outside my comfort zone.
Anyway whatever, women are not tokens of transactional power. It’s 2023 and everyone can read about human rights and women’s rights internationally. Asking money for person is a legally actionable offense in the US. Women aren’t things. And for anyone to track the demise of cante through the transactional system in their culture is a logical fallacy to begin with. If they blame the waning of the passing on of cante on women or the situation women are in that particular culture, it’s a hypocritical stance, because the system of treating women as communal property ( because that’s really what it is) is created by the patriarchy in that culture. It’s blaming the victims to say they are responsible for the inability of song to be transmitted.
Anyway, I saw Agujetas sing twice in person. He was rather parsimonious in his attitude. In the film about him he bragged if he opened his mouth and didn’t want to stop singing, he had enough letras to sing for three days without closing his mouth.
Either I was so transfixed by his singing and it felt like he only opened his mouth for five minutes, or he really was stingy, I don’t know. I didn’t set a stop watch when he sang. I’ve also heard his brother Luis and his sister sing a lot. Overall I like the sister and the other brother in the film whose name I can’t remember, but I think it’s Diego. He was charming and authentic, Manuel was kind of grumpy.
I’d trade both times seeing Manuel for one time seeing Chocolate, who I wasn’t able to see. My friend Anton says the same thing, only he did see Chocolate. He was standing in line in Madrid or somewhere to get a visa to travel, Anton was in line behind him.
I was reading with my son yesterday evening about the Minoan civilization in ancient Greece (he is in 3rd grade? I am not sure for the equivalent of Greek schools to other countries). One of the things we read caught my attention because it reminded me of this thread. The history book said that at that time women had the same rights as men. Of course it is utterly impossible to be sure about what exactly was the situation there 5000 years ago, but they also worshipped the Great Goddess, as it is mentioned, so women might be in better place then, than now in most places of the world.
I agree, but the reading part....they don't send their kids to school.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Anyway whatever, women are not tokens of transactional power. It’s 2023 and everyone can read about human rights and women’s rights internationally. Asking money for person is a legally actionable offense in the US. Women aren’t things. And for anyone to track the demise of cante through the transactional system in their culture is a logical fallacy to begin with. If they blame the waning of the passing on of cante on women or the situation women are in that particular culture, it’s a hypocritical stance, because the system of treating women as communal property ( because that’s really what it is) is created by the patriarchy in that culture. It’s blaming the victims to say they are responsible for the inability of song to be transmitted.
I agree, but the reading part....they don't send their kids to school.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Anyway whatever, women are not tokens of transactional power. It’s 2023 and everyone can read about human rights and women’s rights internationally. Asking money for person is a legally actionable offense in the US. Women aren’t things. And for anyone to track the demise of cante through the transactional system in their culture is a logical fallacy to begin with. If they blame the waning of the passing on of cante on women or the situation women are in that particular culture, it’s a hypocritical stance, because the system of treating women as communal property ( because that’s really what it is) is created by the patriarchy in that culture. It’s blaming the victims to say they are responsible for the inability of song to be transmitted.
Women always know what women in other parts of the world are doing. The gitanas in Spain can read. Where I grew up in Southern California you wouldn’t mess with a chola either.
Asking money for person is a legally actionable offense in the US. Women aren’t things.
The gitano community globally, has always lived outside of local laws, hence their experience in Europe Was always that of being marginalized in any community they landed in. A nomadic way of life was Their solution. It is also for this reason the “racisit” laws put forth to force integration in parts of Spain. The flamenco ones that did integrate, still clung to their traditions and “gypsy law”, obviously, needing to Keep things “secret”, or underground. The cante moved hand in hand with this situation.
By interpreting their traditional practices as your sentiments imply (trafficking), and trying to FORCE them By law, to abandon their traditions and beliefs, you are acting no differently than the European racist marginalization of their collective group. Anyway, they are not “trafficking” women, or treating them as “Property”. The tradition is designed to PROTECT young girls, first of all, and as the Pericon book elucidates, But also to keep blood lines pure. By choosing the husband for a daughter, yes we end up with the known Problems (inbreeding and genetic defects), but it is part of why we see flamenco artists with names like “Vargas Vargas”, or “Fernandez Fernandez”, and artistic nicknames are used instead of surnames. As I Said, you are preaching to the choir here regarding their practices that are weird and foreign (even illegal), But it is absolutely being racist to point a finger at them as a group and order a cease and desist of their Traditional practices. And as we leave them to it, and watch the younger generations slowly evolve out of These old ways, becoming MORE integrated and modernized with society, so will disappear any of the cante That was tied to those old ways (basically what the other guy was saying IMO). It is not like cante was ever In support of human trafficking or treating women unfairly. It is more about the pride of purity of the race And culture.
And as we leave them to it, and watch the younger generations slowly evolve out of These old ways, becoming MORE integrated and modernized with society, so will disappear any of the cante That was tied to those old ways (basically what the other guy was saying IMO)
That’s kind of how I interpreted what mecmachin was saying, as well.
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