Flamenco de verdad (Full Version)

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Morante -> Flamenco de verdad (May 21 2023 16:23:07)




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 22 2023 0:49:26)

OLE! Agujetas Hijo in good form, Agujetas Padre todavio valiente….

RNJ



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 22 2023 12:05:10)

At first I was like what the heck kind of solea is that??
And then I heard the Pañuelo and tres rosas line.
We’ve never had the Pañuelo discussion on foro.
I remember how Pohren said the ladies would use chicken blood…just in case. [:D]



orsonw -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 22 2023 14:50:33)

Thanks for posting.
When one hears the quality of cante from the past, it's hard to disagree that cante is dying today. Still I have hope!

"Pañuelo discussion" Ricardo can you say more? I see this is an alboreá and not heard much outside of a boda gitana.
EDIT: No need I found out.

"Very often, the lyrics refer to the ceremony in which the virginity of the bride is tested by means of a handkerchief."

Este pañuelito blanco

que amanece sin señal,
antes que alboree el día
con flores se ha de coronar.


En un verde prado
tendí mi pañuelo;
nacieron tres rosas
como tres luceros.



Morante -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 22 2023 15:40:33)

https://www.google.com/search?q=alborea+cante+flamenco&client=firefox-b-d&ei=WH5rZN6NGdqGkdUPiMmW2A8&oq=cante+alborea+flamenco&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQARgAMgYIABAIEB46CggAEEcQ1gQQsAM6DQguEA0QgAQQxwEQrwE6BggAEAcQHjoICAAQCBAHEB46GwguEA0QgAQQxwEQrwEQlwUQ3AQQ3gQQ4AQYAToLCC4QgAQQxwEQrwE6BAgAEB46GQguEIAEEMcBEK8BEJcFENwEEN4EEOAEGAFKBAhBGABQ9EJYw68BYInDAWgCcAF4AIABYogBpQaSAQE5mAEAoAEByAEIwAEB2gEGCAEQARgU&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6ad6fa58,vid:ByGDJF7fyhQ



mecmachin -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 22 2023 20:22:11)

Olé.

Hard to believe, but it seems that the loss of real cante goes hand in hand with the loss of prematrimonial virginity.

[8|]



orsonw -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 22 2023 20:48:15)

Thanks for posting.

Here's a direct link to the La Marelu alborea video.



Por una calle muy larga
mete el oro y saca la plata
yalli yalli yalli – a

Qué bonita la novia
que tiene que dar
que tiene que dar
rosa y jasmines por la madrugá
por la madrugá

Alevanta la novia p’arriba
alevanta la novia p’arriba
que se despida de su familia
que se despida de su familia

Mare mía de la junquera
tú pones cama y yo cabezera
yalli yalli yalli yalli –

Qué bonita la novia
que tiene que dar
que tiene que dar
rosa y jasmines por la madrugá
por la madrugá

Alevanta y no duerma más
alevanta y no duerma más…



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 23 2023 2:26:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mecmachin

Olé.

Hard to believe, but it seems that the loss of real cante goes hand in hand with the loss of prematrimonial virginity.

[8|]

Seriously?



mecmachin -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 23 2023 10:08:08)

In some way yes.

Because the cante which is considered as real cante by good aficionados comes from an epoch when in Catholic Spain the man put a pillow over his wifes face during the act of procreation...



estebanana -> [Deleted] (May 23 2023 12:41:41)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 23 2023 12:42:06



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 23 2023 12:42:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mecmachin

In some way yes.

Because the cante which is considered as real cante by good aficionados comes from an epoch when in Catholic Spain the man put a pillow over his wifes face during the act of procreation...

Yeah right. That’s bull-sh&t. Ever dated a Catholic school girl?

Not to mention that flamenco attracted all kinds of proclivities of sexuality in its performers
and could be a scene of veiled sexual solicitation. I can’t even begin to separate Catholic toxic male control language from realities of sex lives.



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 23 2023 13:04:16)

Gitano traditions are not much different than any others that value young female virginity.
I am close to several modern Gitano communities and I can assure you the sexual revolution
Of the 60s in USA has not affected them. They still have arranged marriages. I realized that
Much of cante letras regarding love gone wrong relates to this pre-arranged issue (same as
Modern INdian couples that find themselves in arrangements made by old-fashioned families). Female virginity
Is STILL highly valued despite its unrealistic implications in the modern age.

Here is one case. Two close gypsy friends marry their kids. Being so close, the two kids felt
More like brother and sister. Their post wedding experience was a nightmare. They soon agreed
That having children was unrealistic and told their parents they would be divorcing. The girl’s dad
demanded return of all Wedding expense as his daughter is considered “damaged goods”. As you
Can imagine the friendship was ruined as well. And it is not only about female fidelity. I have another
Friend whose dad was conspicuously absent from what would be his grandsons huge gypsy wedding.
When I inquired it seems grandpa had strayed and it is basically a “blackballed” situation, doesn’t matter
If you are a super important member of the family.

So this antiquated traditional practice thing is no joke.
also this message will eventually self destruct to protect the innocent. Please don’t grab quotes



RobF -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 23 2023 15:36:22)

quote:

…also this message will eventually self destruct to protect the innocent. Please don’t grab quotes


Oh man…the temptation…

I’ve got to admit, though, while I wouldn’t have put it quite the same way as mecmac (I would need way too many edits to figure out exactly how I’d put it), similar thoughts did cross my mind.


P.S. Morante, can you fix your dam link, lol, it’s two and a half miles long and it’s destroying the page! (PPS Don’t copy this, I’ll remove the postscript once it’s done)



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 23 2023 16:55:22)

No quotes grabbed. The idea that cante and premarital virginity are on the wane and related is a strange comparison. That’s all I’m saying. Maybe women should be oppressed more today, that would for sure make cante better, yes sirree. Everyone would be singing much better and without those pop music letras seeping in if only we’d put more women under chastity laws and shame. 😂



kitarist -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 23 2023 17:54:05)

I thnk the link above just needs to be this "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByGDJF7fyhQ".

Everything else in the original was just irrelevant info (query words, past queries, web browser used, whatnot..)




mecmachin -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 23 2023 20:55:40)

quote:

Everyone would be singing much better and without those pop music letras seeping in if only we’d put more women under chastity laws and shame.


Don't get me wrong. I don't think that women or men were chastier in old times. Only society was more hippocrit on sexualtiy. And the flamenco letra is best placed to denounce this.
Two examples:
virgen de la merced si mi gustito logré un habito voy a romper
quisiera verte y hablarte quisiera cojerte sola y satisfacciones darte

Nowadays, society is certainly hippocrit on other issues, meanwhile the gitanos stick a bit to the old days.

More panuelo stories, please
Or good cante

[:D][:)]



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 24 2023 12:54:32)

quote:

Maybe women should be oppressed more today



Traditions always seem like oppression to outsiders, as they are often weird or unthinkable
In other contexts. Like taking my boots off at a Japanese person’s house, wtf??? But honestly, take Rosalia.
I think her use of autotune on the cante
Is more sinful than the fact that she will fail to produce 3 rosas on her Pañuelo on her
Wedding day. [:D][:D][:D]. In fact it should be the 11th commandment god missed,
“Thought shalt not use autotune for thy vocals….unless it is like, you know, just an
Effect that sounds digital and cool”.[:D][:D]



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 25 2023 1:37:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Maybe women should be oppressed more today



Traditions always seem like oppression to outsiders, as they are often weird or unthinkable
In other contexts. Like taking my boots off at a Japanese person’s house, wtf??? But honestly, take Rosalia.
I think her use of autotune on the cante
Is more sinful than the fact that she will fail to produce 3 rosas on her Pañuelo on her
Wedding day. [:D][:D][:D]. In fact it should be the 11th commandment god missed,
“Thought shalt not use autotune for thy vocals….unless it is like, you know, just an
Effect that sounds digital and cool”.[:D][:D]



Yes traditions seem like oppression to outsiders…. And insiders too.

The point is that women’s bodily autonomy has absolutely zero to do with the success or failure of cante to be perpetuated.

When my aunt worked at state dept he was assigned to Iraq and Pakistan for various durations. In both situations she worked as part of a task force that gave aid to child brides, a group working with Dept of State to provide support and assistance to young girls who wanted to be emancipated from ‘traditional’ entrapment in marriages they didn’t consent to.

Really it’s women who have the final say on what’s culturally appropriate in terms of their bodies and lives, not the over lay of a patriarchal system of control. If a girl seeks emancipation from being forced to marry some old fart it’s her human right - human right- to seek emancipation.

Anyone want to argue with me on this is going to get a full ass kicking so drop the arguments now or face my wrath. Seriously.

I don’t care what culture you want to tip toe around.

——-

Auto tune is a crime against human rights as well. As a listener of fine musics it’s my human right to hear which singers can sing in tune on their own and which suck eggs.

AND WILL SOMEONE PLEASE FIX THE WRAPPING IN THIS GIDFAMMED THEAD!!



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



chester -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 25 2023 2:53:21)

quote:

Traditions always seem like oppression to outsiders, as they are often weird or unthinkable
In other contexts. Like taking my boots off at a Japanese person’s house


that analogy is about as good as morante's url comprehension.



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 25 2023 12:12:01)

quote:

I don’t care what culture you want to tip toe around.


You are preaching to the Choir here. However, if you read Pericon’s book (a recent thread about it),
We see what happened to the many of the un betrothed women in old days. And suddenly it makes
Sense why the great cantaoras disappear from the scene until they are old and the husband has
Passed away. It used to make me angry until I read that little tid bit of context. It would apply
To other cultures as well. Methods, madness, lesser of two evils, etc.

To Chester about my poor boots analogy…well, I guess you never owned a nice pair of boots?
As if this URL issue never occurred in a thread before??? Really guys???[&:][8|]



Morante -> [Deleted] (May 25 2023 15:41:54)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 25 2023 16:25:41



Morante -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 25 2023 16:25:17)

Gracias carajote



chester -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 25 2023 20:43:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

Gracias carajote

denada don viejo



Mark2 -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 25 2023 21:38:03)

I've written before that I have business relationships with several American gypsy families. I done business with them for 40 over years. I'm doing some business with the grand kids of some of the old timers I sold to years ago.

I guess I'm grandfathered in as a trusted supplier because when I had a dispute with one of the grand kids, an elder told him to STFU and pay me, which he did, along with offering an apology.

An interesting story I heard was about a young wife who was "stolen" by another gypsy. Ronnie, a guy in his 40's who I've known since he was a kid, is an elder now and he explained that if the girl was returned with 25k, all would be forgiven. If he wanted to keep her, the cost would be 150k.

I have no idea how it played out, but none of them can sing a lick. I find them to be the most singular culture I've run across in my career of dealing with people from all walks of life. I can relate to some of their lifestyle choices, while others are way outside my comfort zone.



estebanana -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 26 2023 3:45:02)

Anyway whatever, women are not tokens of transactional power. It’s 2023 and everyone can read about human rights and women’s rights internationally. Asking money for person is a legally actionable offense in the US. Women aren’t things. And for anyone to track the demise of cante through the transactional system in their culture is a logical fallacy to begin with. If they blame the waning of the passing on of cante on women or the situation women are in that particular culture, it’s a hypocritical stance, because the system of treating women as communal property ( because that’s really what it is) is created by the patriarchy in that culture. It’s blaming the victims to say they are responsible for the inability of song to be transmitted.



Anyway, I saw Agujetas sing twice in person. He was rather parsimonious in his attitude. In the film about him he bragged if he opened his mouth and didn’t want to stop singing, he had enough letras to sing for three days without closing his mouth.

Either I was so transfixed by his singing and it felt like he only opened his mouth for five minutes, or he really was stingy, I don’t know. I didn’t set a stop watch when he sang. I’ve also heard his brother Luis and his sister sing a lot. Overall I like the sister and the other brother in the film whose name I can’t remember, but I think it’s Diego. He was charming and authentic, Manuel was kind of grumpy.

I’d trade both times seeing Manuel for one time seeing Chocolate, who I wasn’t able to see. My friend Anton says the same thing, only he did see Chocolate. He was standing in line in Madrid or somewhere to get a visa to travel, Anton was in line behind him.



AndresK -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 26 2023 6:34:30)

I was reading with my son yesterday evening about the Minoan civilization
in ancient Greece (he is in 3rd grade? I am not sure for the equivalent of Greek schools to other countries).
One of the things we read caught my attention because it reminded me of this thread.
The history book said that at that time women had the same rights as men.
Of course it is utterly impossible to be sure about what exactly was the situation there 5000 years ago,
but they also worshipped the Great Goddess,
as it is mentioned, so women might be in better place then,
than now in most places of the world.



Mark2 -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 26 2023 16:33:39)

I agree, but the reading part....they don't send their kids to school.



quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Anyway whatever, women are not tokens of transactional power. It’s 2023 and everyone can read about human rights and women’s rights internationally. Asking money for person is a legally actionable offense in the US. Women aren’t things. And for anyone to track the demise of cante through the transactional system in their culture is a logical fallacy to begin with. If they blame the waning of the passing on of cante on women or the situation women are in that particular culture, it’s a hypocritical stance, because the system of treating women as communal property ( because that’s really what it is) is created by the patriarchy in that culture. It’s blaming the victims to say they are responsible for the inability of song to be transmitted.







estebanana -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 26 2023 16:49:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

I agree, but the reading part....they don't send their kids to school.



quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Anyway whatever, women are not tokens of transactional power. It’s 2023 and everyone can read about human rights and women’s rights internationally. Asking money for person is a legally actionable offense in the US. Women aren’t things. And for anyone to track the demise of cante through the transactional system in their culture is a logical fallacy to begin with. If they blame the waning of the passing on of cante on women or the situation women are in that particular culture, it’s a hypocritical stance, because the system of treating women as communal property ( because that’s really what it is) is created by the patriarchy in that culture. It’s blaming the victims to say they are responsible for the inability of song to be transmitted.








Women always know what women in other parts of the world are doing. The gitanas in Spain can read. Where I grew up in Southern California you wouldn’t mess with a chola either.



Ricardo -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 26 2023 16:59:17)

quote:

Asking money for person is a legally actionable offense in the US. Women aren’t things.


The gitano community globally, has always lived outside of local laws, hence their experience in Europe
Was always that of being marginalized in any community they landed in. A nomadic way of life was
Their solution. It is also for this reason the “racisit” laws put forth to force integration in parts of Spain.
The flamenco ones that did integrate, still clung to their traditions and “gypsy law”, obviously, needing to
Keep things “secret”, or underground. The cante moved hand in hand with this situation.

By interpreting their traditional practices as your sentiments imply (trafficking), and trying to FORCE them
By law, to abandon their traditions and beliefs, you are acting no differently than the European racist
marginalization of their collective group. Anyway, they are not “trafficking” women, or treating them as
“Property”. The tradition is designed to PROTECT young girls, first of all, and as the Pericon book elucidates,
But also to keep blood lines pure. By choosing the husband for a daughter, yes we end up with the known
Problems (inbreeding and genetic defects), but it is part of why we see flamenco artists with names like
“Vargas Vargas”, or “Fernandez Fernandez”, and artistic nicknames are used instead of surnames. As I
Said, you are preaching to the choir here regarding their practices that are weird and foreign (even illegal),
But it is absolutely being racist to point a finger at them as a group and order a cease and desist of their
Traditional practices. And as we leave them to it, and watch the younger generations slowly evolve out of
These old ways, becoming MORE integrated and modernized with society, so will disappear any of the cante
That was tied to those old ways (basically what the other guy was saying IMO). It is not like cante was ever
In support of human trafficking or treating women unfairly. It is more about the pride of purity of the race
And culture.



RobF -> RE: Flamenco de verdad (May 26 2023 19:17:40)

quote:

And as we leave them to it, and watch the younger generations slowly evolve out of
These old ways, becoming MORE integrated and modernized with society, so will disappear any of the cante
That was tied to those old ways (basically what the other guy was saying IMO)


That’s kind of how I interpreted what mecmachin was saying, as well.



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