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What's a good flameco guitar action?
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (in reply to Echi)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
I don’t know about your guitar, my thing is that nowadays people can be a little obsessed with these decimals.
You have to see the whole picture.
A comfortable neck/fretboard does the job without the need for a such a low action (and btw 2.5 or 2.8 makes a minimal difference).
The reason I happen to know the measurements on this instrument is that the A string buzzed slightly, only when fretted at the 10th fret, when I got the guitar home from the luthier, who lives in a different city.
I asked a very well known repairman here in Austin to make me a saddle one millimeter higher. He produced an exact replica of the original, except 1mm higher. That stopped the buzz.
I was surprised when I got around to measuring the action with the new saddle. Today it's 1.85mm on the 6th string at the 12th fret, 1.80mm on the first string. I used Luthiers Mercantile's tool, which gives the expected readings on other instruments.
I never would have had the action so low, if the luthier had not set it up the way it was to begin with.
Although the guitar wears D'Addario EJ-46 high tension strings, the super-low action makes it easier to fret than any other guitar I have. All the rest have normal setups.
Of my guitars, this is the only one that works equally well for classical and flamenco. It was built to be a spruce/Indian flamenca negra. I have others that do better on either classical or flamenco, but none of them do equally well both ways.
This is the one I'm taking with me when I leave on Thursday for a couple of weeks in Florida.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 18 2023 1:00:58
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (in reply to metalhead)
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As a metal guy myself, I need 3.5-4mm in some cases, so the lead guitar melody stuff actually projects. Guitars with lower than action 3mm, you can’t play loud enough to project, although those are fun guitars for just rhythm playing, but very little dynamic headroom.
But the thing you need to understand is the balance with the NECK ANGLE, which is a major factor for flamenco style. Like on electric guitars when you try a different one and suddenly can’t find your sweet pinch harmonics with the right hand because of the position of the bridge, and need to adjust right hand articulation. Same deal on flamenco bridges with right hand techniques where it is preferred to set the bridge very low (7-8mm) for rhythm and feel of the right hand, but the neck is more forward so it is not too buzzy, or even fairly high as I described. Two of my favorite guitars are set at 7mm at bridge and 3.5+ 12th fret.
Last thing to worry about…most luthiers want you to take fret action measurements with capo ON FIRST FRET, because it drops the true action added by the nut down a hair.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 18 2023 15:07:11
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
As a metal guy myself, I need 3.5-4mm in some cases, so the lead guitar melody stuff actually projects. Guitars with lower than action 3mm, you can’t play loud enough to project, although those are fun guitars for just rhythm playing, but very little dynamic headroom.
But the thing you need to understand is the balance with the NECK ANGLE, which is a major factor for flamenco style. Like on electric guitars when you try a different one and suddenly can’t find your sweet pinch harmonics with the right hand because of the position of the bridge, and need to adjust right hand articulation. Same deal on flamenco bridges with right hand techniques where it is preferred to set the bridge very low (7-8mm) for rhythm and feel of the right hand, but the neck is more forward so it is not too buzzy, or even fairly high as I described. Two of my favorite guitars are set at 7mm at bridge and 3.5+ 12th fret.
Last thing to worry about…most luthiers want you to take fret action measurements with capo ON FIRST FRET, because it drops the true action added by the nut down a hair.
God bless you. Dios se existe
God bless you ( if I believed in god)
Low saddle so alzapua can be ripped, and 3.0 mm at 12th fret so picado can be dynamically pushed.
Carefully adjusted nut clearance so legato is smooth, yet potent.
Personally I’m not a fan of the low rider set up, it’s too mushy.
My personal guitar is 3.2 to 3.0 at 12th fret bass E and 2.8 for treble E with a 7.8 mm saddle and very careful nut clearance. At the nut I find the G string to be the most difficult to adjust. It needs to speak out, but not bottom out as an open string, while being low enough to be in line with its surrounding strings.
Now I’m looking at setups with a 5X magnifying visor.
The other thing to understand is that long scales create better guitars for flamenco in general. People are scared of this and that’s a big misnomer, unfortunately.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 18 2023 15:25:19
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
As a metal guy myself, I need 3.5-4mm in some cases, so the lead guitar melody stuff actually projects. Guitars with lower than action 3mm, you can’t play loud enough to project, although those are fun guitars for just rhythm playing, but very little dynamic headroom.
But the thing you need to understand is the balance with the NECK ANGLE, which is a major factor for flamenco style. Like on electric guitars when you try a different one and suddenly can’t find your sweet pinch harmonics with the right hand because of the position of the bridge, and need to adjust right hand articulation. Same deal on flamenco bridges with right hand techniques where it is preferred to set the bridge very low (7-8mm) for rhythm and feel of the right hand, but the neck is more forward so it is not too buzzy, or even fairly high as I described. Two of my favorite guitars are set at 7mm at bridge and 3.5+ 12th fret.
Last thing to worry about…most luthiers want you to take fret action measurements with capo ON FIRST FRET, because it drops the true action added by the nut down a hair.
Until I got "this guitar" I would have agreed with everything you say above.
The action at the 12th fret was measured with a capo at the first fret.
After playing "this guitar" for an hour, when I pick up the Abel Garcia spruce/Brazilian classical, the Garcia is actually a little louder. It has a much softer right hand feel, and a normal setup. As I adjust to the Garcia I lighten up on right hand force, and begin to get some tonal variety out of it. Going back to "this guitar" I have to use a much firmer right hand touch to get what I want from it.
If I pick up the Ramirez or Arcangel blanca after playing "this guitar" i tend to use too much force, over-driving the trebles. The Ramirez has Savarez "red card" strings on it, the Arcangel has "white cards." Both blancas have normal flamenco setups, and don't buzz very much, if at all.
When "this guitar" was first put together, the luthier decided the top was too thick. If it was as he described, it was indeed unusually thick. He thinned it down. He sanded the braces. He sent it to a colleague to be lacquered in nitrocellulose, the only one of his guitars I know of that is not French polished.
When it was finished but still at the luthier's shop, it had piercingly brilliant trebles. The luthier expressed doubts about the basses. We compared "this guitar" to the Ramirez and the Arcangel. The luthier said he thought "this guitar" was ready to go out into the world.
With time and playing the basses began to open up, as spruce guitars often do. After more than a year the instrument is now balanced. It has no noticeable dead spots on any string at any fret. The trebles are still brilliant, but it takes some force to get them to project, both free stroke and supported.
At the saddle, the strings are 9mm above the soundboard, but the action on the fingerboard is the lowest I have ever seen, much less played regularly.
I remain mystified why it doesn't buzz.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 18 2023 17:16:01
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Ricardo,
By ‘this guitar’ Jernigan is referring to the six shooter he bought down at Salty the Saddlebag Western Tack Shop.
So what’s the scale length of the Sodium Super Sonic?
Thanks for the physics posts. I have, or at least had, a string simulator on this computer, but so far I haven't found it again. If I don't come up with it, I'll crib the one you linked.
It's relatively straightforward to put together a simulation of a plucked string fixed at both ends. Joseph Fourier could have solved the differential equations in 1822. But once you couple the string to something as complex as a guitar top, things quickly get out of hand for the math.
A very well known luthier (not the one who made "this guitar") once asked me whether there was a straightforward mathematical way to distinguish between the response of a domed top and a flat one.
I responded that the only way I knew to start would be with the technology that NASA developed to anyalyze the structure of giant rockets on the super computers of the day.
Computer technology has advanced greatly since then. You can do some of that stuff on a good desktop nowadays. But once you put together the computer model--a very laborious task--you would have to build and measure at least a couple of guitars to verify the model.
My advice to the luthier was you would probably learn more by just building some guitars, playing and listening to them.
"This guitar" is the second one I bought from this luthier, you might say unintentionally. He asked to compare it to my blancas. It piqued my curiosity.
As far as I know it may be his last one. He started another a while back, but I haven't heard anything about him finishing it.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 19 2023 6:08:31
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
At the saddle, the strings are 9mm above the soundboard, but the action on the fingerboard is the lowest I have ever seen, much less played regularly.
The OP just wanted to understand what a “flamenco set up is”. Before we bust out the heavy physics, and no offense to any builders or fav guitars of folks, but this here is plain normal classical set up. I have several guitars like this, where, in order to play the thing like normal the bridge is down there and takes the strings super low like that because of the incorrect neck angle. It is not easy to get it right, if it is even the intent. Often we see old guitars that owners feel the neck has moved forward, obviously more than intended, with 4mm at 12, and super low bridge with no white showing. That might seem like a “problem” to many, but the intent is clear. I of course can play low action guitars with high bridge and make them sound clean….my Sanchis that EVERYBODY loves and I have had so many offers to buy it, is such a guitar. But it is the wrong set up, and I have bled all over the thing.  It is exactly like what you describe above, so I can imagine.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 19 2023 14:19:23
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
At the saddle, the strings are 9mm above the soundboard, but the action on the fingerboard is the lowest I have ever seen, much less played regularly.
The OP just wanted to understand what a “flamenco set up is”. Before we bust out the heavy physics, and no offense to any builders or fav guitars of folks, but this here is plain normal classical set up. I have several guitars like this, where, in order to play the thing like normal the bridge is down there and takes the strings super low like that because of the incorrect neck angle. It is not easy to get it right, if it is even the intent. Often we see old guitars that owners feel the neck has moved forward, obviously more than intended, with 4mm at 12, and super low bridge with no white showing. That might seem like a “problem” to many, but the intent is clear. I of course can play low action guitars with high bridge and make them sound clean….my Sanchis that EVERYBODY loves and I have had so many offers to buy it, is such a guitar. But it is the wrong set up, and I have bled all over the thing. It is exactly like what you describe above, so I can imagine.
Well sure 9milli is too high for quadro work etc.
The one I gave to Jason ( cutaway negra) is 3mm at. Bass
E and just under 3 mm at 12th treble, but the saddle is just under 7.5mm. Like it should be.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 19 2023 16:19:42
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
The OP just wanted to understand what a “flamenco set up is”. Before we bust out the heavy physics, and no offense to any builders or fav guitars of folks, but this here is plain normal classical set up. I have several guitars like this, where, in order to play the thing like normal the bridge is down there and takes the strings super low like that because of the incorrect neck angle. It is not easy to get it right, if it is even the intent. Often we see old guitars that owners feel the neck has moved forward, obviously more than intended, with 4mm at 12, and super low bridge with no white showing. That might seem like a “problem” to many, but the intent is clear. I of course can play low action guitars with high bridge and make them sound clean….my Sanchis that EVERYBODY loves and I have had so many offers to buy it, is such a guitar. But it is the wrong set up, and I have bled all over the thing. It is exactly like what you describe above, so I can imagine.
Yes. Go with Ricardo's advice about setup.
I only brought up the anomalous guitar because it was said that a guitar with extraordinarily low action couldn't be pushed. The guitar in question actually has to be pushed in order to project. And it does project, if you get after it.
I haven't tried it with lower tension strings. It's not my favorite guitar because I don't have a favorite.
The ones I didn't play much have been sold, or I gave one to the local guitar society since it was decent, and not particularly expensive.
RNJ
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Date Apr. 20 2023 5:30:45
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