What's a good flameco guitar action? (Full Version)

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metalhead -> What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 15 2023 19:18:15)

Hello, flamenco novice here. I'm heavily inspired by Ben Woods and want to imitate his style. I've given a guitar for setup, and the luthier says he'll try to get the action to 2.8mm at the bass and 2.5mm on the treble at the 12th fret. Is this a good action for overall fast playability?



orsonw -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 15 2023 21:10:49)

quote:

the action to 2.8mm at the bass and 2.5mm on the treble at the 12th fret. Is this a good action for overall fast playability?


Yes, depending on the guitar and the player this is good, could even be 3mm and still good.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 15 2023 22:45:14)

I agree with orsonw.

However, how low you can go depends upon the particular guitar. I have one guitar whose action is lower, and it's not only good for flamenco, I can actually play classical on it since it doesn't buzz.

RNJ



silddx -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 15 2023 22:50:43)

The general feel and playability also depends on the amount of relief in the neck. I have one that has a 2.8 low E but there's a little too much relief which makes it feel a little tubby around 6th-9th frets.

My other has a very low action, about 2.5 low E 2.2 high E with no buzz. There's very minimal relief and it feels amazing to play.

But it's all very subjective and each instrument has its own characteristics. It's all about what feels right for you really. If you have a great sounding guitar you may feel inclined to tolerate a higher action.

Like Orson said, 3mm is perfectly acceptable for a flamenco guitar as far as I have been made aware.



etta -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 16 2023 16:58:08)

I find that high tension strings allow me to to go lower @ 2.4-2.2 without buzzing.



Echi -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 17 2023 15:14:14)

3 mm is the standard.
You can go lower if You don’t need to be loud or if your guitar doesn’t like to be pushed…. Some concert guitars really sing and project when and if pushed properly.
In other words it’s a matter of needs, of style and to find the right spot to get the best from the actual guitar.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 17 2023 17:41:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

3 mm is the standard.
You can go lower if You don’t need to be loud or if your guitar doesn’t like to be pushed…. Some concert guitars really sing and project when and if pushed properly.
In other words it’s a matter of needs, of style and to find the right spot to get the best from the actual guitar.


The guitar with very low action which I mentioned actually needs to be pushed. It still doesn't buzz.

RNJ



Echi -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 17 2023 22:41:39)

I don’t know about your guitar, my thing is that nowadays people can be a little obsessed with these decimals.
You have to see the whole picture.
A comfortable neck/fretboard does the job without the need for a such a low action (and btw 2.5 or 2.8 makes a minimal difference).



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 18 2023 1:00:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

I don’t know about your guitar, my thing is that nowadays people can be a little obsessed with these decimals.
You have to see the whole picture.
A comfortable neck/fretboard does the job without the need for a such a low action (and btw 2.5 or 2.8 makes a minimal difference).


The reason I happen to know the measurements on this instrument is that the A string buzzed slightly, only when fretted at the 10th fret, when I got the guitar home from the luthier, who lives in a different city.

I asked a very well known repairman here in Austin to make me a saddle one millimeter higher. He produced an exact replica of the original, except 1mm higher. That stopped the buzz.

I was surprised when I got around to measuring the action with the new saddle. Today it's 1.85mm on the 6th string at the 12th fret, 1.80mm on the first string. I used Luthiers Mercantile's tool, which gives the expected readings on other instruments.

I never would have had the action so low, if the luthier had not set it up the way it was to begin with.

Although the guitar wears D'Addario EJ-46 high tension strings, the super-low action makes it easier to fret than any other guitar I have. All the rest have normal setups.

Of my guitars, this is the only one that works equally well for classical and flamenco. It was built to be a spruce/Indian flamenca negra. I have others that do better on either classical or flamenco, but none of them do equally well both ways.

This is the one I'm taking with me when I leave on Thursday for a couple of weeks in Florida.

RNJ



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JasonM -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 18 2023 14:00:34)

quote:

I was surprised when I got around to measuring the action with the new saddle. Today it's 1.85mm on the 6th string at the 12th fret, 1.80mm on the first string


No way! that is crazy low



Ricardo -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 18 2023 15:07:11)

As a metal guy myself, I need 3.5-4mm in some cases, so the lead guitar melody stuff actually projects. Guitars with lower than action 3mm, you can’t play loud enough to project, although those are fun guitars for just rhythm playing, but very little dynamic headroom.

But the thing you need to understand is the balance with the NECK ANGLE, which is a major factor for flamenco style. Like on electric guitars when you try a different one and suddenly can’t find your sweet pinch harmonics with the right hand because of the position of the bridge, and need to adjust right hand articulation. Same deal on flamenco bridges with right hand techniques where it is preferred to set the bridge very low (7-8mm) for rhythm and feel of the right hand, but the neck is more forward so it is not too buzzy, or even fairly high as I described. Two of my favorite guitars are set at 7mm at bridge and 3.5+ 12th fret.

Last thing to worry about…most luthiers want you to take fret action measurements with capo ON FIRST FRET, because it drops the true action added by the nut down a hair.



estebanana -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 18 2023 15:25:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

As a metal guy myself, I need 3.5-4mm in some cases, so the lead guitar melody stuff actually projects. Guitars with lower than action 3mm, you can’t play loud enough to project, although those are fun guitars for just rhythm playing, but very little dynamic headroom.

But the thing you need to understand is the balance with the NECK ANGLE, which is a major factor for flamenco style. Like on electric guitars when you try a different one and suddenly can’t find your sweet pinch harmonics with the right hand because of the position of the bridge, and need to adjust right hand articulation. Same deal on flamenco bridges with right hand techniques where it is preferred to set the bridge very low (7-8mm) for rhythm and feel of the right hand, but the neck is more forward so it is not too buzzy, or even fairly high as I described. Two of my favorite guitars are set at 7mm at bridge and 3.5+ 12th fret.

Last thing to worry about…most luthiers want you to take fret action measurements with capo ON FIRST FRET, because it drops the true action added by the nut down a hair.


God bless you. Dios se existe

God bless you ( if I believed in god)

Low saddle so alzapua can be ripped, and 3.0 mm at 12th fret so picado can be dynamically pushed.

Carefully adjusted nut clearance so legato is smooth, yet potent.

Personally I’m not a fan of the low rider set up, it’s too mushy.

My personal guitar is 3.2 to 3.0 at 12th fret bass E and 2.8 for treble E with a 7.8 mm saddle and very careful nut clearance. At the nut I find the G string to be the most difficult to adjust. It needs to speak out, but not bottom out as an open string, while being low enough to be in line with its surrounding strings.

Now I’m looking at setups with a 5X magnifying visor.

The other thing to understand is that long scales create better guitars for flamenco in general. People are scared of this and that’s a big misnomer, unfortunately.



Ricardo -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 18 2023 15:47:56)

quote:

The other thing to understand is that long scales create better guitars for flamenco in general. People are scared of this and that’s a big misnomer, unfortunately.


It is as if those scaredy cats won’t ever use a capo. If you play for a real cantaor you will need to capo up high for some palos, and the wider frets from long scale guitars are hugely welcomed up there.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 18 2023 17:16:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

As a metal guy myself, I need 3.5-4mm in some cases, so the lead guitar melody stuff actually projects. Guitars with lower than action 3mm, you can’t play loud enough to project, although those are fun guitars for just rhythm playing, but very little dynamic headroom.

But the thing you need to understand is the balance with the NECK ANGLE, which is a major factor for flamenco style. Like on electric guitars when you try a different one and suddenly can’t find your sweet pinch harmonics with the right hand because of the position of the bridge, and need to adjust right hand articulation. Same deal on flamenco bridges with right hand techniques where it is preferred to set the bridge very low (7-8mm) for rhythm and feel of the right hand, but the neck is more forward so it is not too buzzy, or even fairly high as I described. Two of my favorite guitars are set at 7mm at bridge and 3.5+ 12th fret.

Last thing to worry about…most luthiers want you to take fret action measurements with capo ON FIRST FRET, because it drops the true action added by the nut down a hair.


Until I got "this guitar" I would have agreed with everything you say above.

The action at the 12th fret was measured with a capo at the first fret.

After playing "this guitar" for an hour, when I pick up the Abel Garcia spruce/Brazilian classical, the Garcia is actually a little louder. It has a much softer right hand feel, and a normal setup. As I adjust to the Garcia I lighten up on right hand force, and begin to get some tonal variety out of it. Going back to "this guitar" I have to use a much firmer right hand touch to get what I want from it.

If I pick up the Ramirez or Arcangel blanca after playing "this guitar" i tend to use too much force, over-driving the trebles. The Ramirez has Savarez "red card" strings on it, the Arcangel has "white cards." Both blancas have normal flamenco setups, and don't buzz very much, if at all.

When "this guitar" was first put together, the luthier decided the top was too thick. If it was as he described, it was indeed unusually thick. He thinned it down. He sanded the braces. He sent it to a colleague to be lacquered in nitrocellulose, the only one of his guitars I know of that is not French polished.

When it was finished but still at the luthier's shop, it had piercingly brilliant trebles. The luthier expressed doubts about the basses. We compared "this guitar" to the Ramirez and the Arcangel. The luthier said he thought "this guitar" was ready to go out into the world.

With time and playing the basses began to open up, as spruce guitars often do. After more than a year the instrument is now balanced. It has no noticeable dead spots on any string at any fret. The trebles are still brilliant, but it takes some force to get them to project, both free stroke and supported.

At the saddle, the strings are 9mm above the soundboard, but the action on the fingerboard is the lowest I have ever seen, much less played regularly.

I remain mystified why it doesn't buzz.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 18 2023 23:19:31)

Ricardo,

By ‘this guitar’ Jernigan is referring to the six shooter he bought down at Salty the Saddlebag Western Tack Shop.

So what’s the scale length of the Sodium Super Sonic?



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 3:03:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Ricardo,

By ‘this guitar’ Jernigan is referring to the six shooter he bought down at Salty the Saddlebag Western Tack Shop.

So what’s the scale length of the Sodium Super Sonic?


327mm from nut to 12th fret, 327mm from 12th fret to saddle. With the action so low, compensation would no doubt be a mistake.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 5:22:11)

String length and scale are the same then?

This is interesting because it’s difficult to identify what makes the string excursion different on different guitars. I’d venture to say usually, but not always, stiff tops after bracing encourage a less wide string excursion. And the way a string vibrates isn’t strictly back an forth, there’s a wave that moves the length of the string that causes it to vibrate in a trapezoid shape (if drawn) or a parabolic shape.

It’s that wave moving along the string, and how it’s shaped in relation to the fingerboard plane that enables action to be low without being too buzzy.



estebanana -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 5:54:12)

Here is a link that has good diagrams halfway down the page.

When you pluck a guitar string behind the sound that creates a long uneven triangle shape. When you release the string during the pluck that angle travels along the string and is expressed on the nut end of the guitar. When the string is plucked in the middle, a different oscillation shape happens, the wave that creates the [trapezoid - wrong] parallelogram like shape isn’t there.

As the wave moves along the string it might touch the tops of the frets as it gets closer to the nut. The bass strings run a more exaggerated course of that wave shape and obviously buzz more, the mass the string has, the more it deforms ( to an
Extent dependent on what core material the string is made with)

There are a lot of questions or things to observe, like does the top add in exaggeration of the [ edit- trapezoid -wrong ] parallelogram shape or does it hinder the movement of that wave. Figuring out how to make the top so that it probably hampering the movement of that wave is likely a key. Stiffness however doesn’t always translate to disciplined string excursion.

That’s why guitar making is so difficult to talk about. You can describe it with physics, but that’s not always where it ends.


https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/Pluck-Fourier/Pluck-Fourier.html



estebanana -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 6:04:37)

The blue mark is where the string is plucked. It’s a kind of line that if you had two of them it could draw out a trapezoidal shape. In physics it’s likely called something else, but since I’m not a physicist I don’t play the rules. I call it the string excursion.



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estebanana -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 6:06:31)

This diagram shows the shape or wave moving along the string.

See the webpage I posted for a moving animated example.




I notice in the text of the article they are calling it a parallelogram- which makes more sense.



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Richard Jernigan -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 6:08:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Ricardo,

By ‘this guitar’ Jernigan is referring to the six shooter he bought down at Salty the Saddlebag Western Tack Shop.

So what’s the scale length of the Sodium Super Sonic?

Thanks for the physics posts. I have, or at least had, a string simulator on this computer, but so far I haven't found it again. If I don't come up with it, I'll crib the one you linked.

It's relatively straightforward to put together a simulation of a plucked string fixed at both ends. Joseph Fourier could have solved the differential equations in 1822. But once you couple the string to something as complex as a guitar top, things quickly get out of hand for the math.

A very well known luthier (not the one who made "this guitar") once asked me whether there was a straightforward mathematical way to distinguish between the response of a domed top and a flat one.

I responded that the only way I knew to start would be with the technology that NASA developed to anyalyze the structure of giant rockets on the super computers of the day.

Computer technology has advanced greatly since then. You can do some of that stuff on a good desktop nowadays. But once you put together the computer model--a very laborious task--you would have to build and measure at least a couple of guitars to verify the model.

My advice to the luthier was you would probably learn more by just building some guitars, playing and listening to them.

"This guitar" is the second one I bought from this luthier, you might say unintentionally. He asked to compare it to my blancas. It piqued my curiosity.

As far as I know it may be his last one. He started another a while back, but I haven't heard anything about him finishing it.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 6:19:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Ricardo,

By ‘this guitar’ Jernigan is referring to the six shooter he bought down at Salty the Saddlebag Western Tack Shop.

So what’s the scale length of the Sodium Super Sonic?


This is the second guitar I bought from this luthier. As far as I know it may be his last one. He started another a while back, but I haven't heard anything about him finishing it

RNJ



This guitar maker makes good guitars. I’ve never worried about that, it’s just their self mythologizing ( and ad nauseam explaining of a method i don’t want in my head) has perhaps led them to believe their own untruths in regards to other guitar makers. Which still makes me angry. But whatever guitar comes up as an example to use as way of talking action isn’t an issue for me.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 6:41:06)

I re-wrote the last post you quoted.

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 7:11:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

I re-wrote the last post you quoted.

RNJ



I see that, and hope my own salty response wasn’t too much to spoil the stew. 😂

Focusing on your rewrite of the post I quoted~

I’m of the mind that diligently listening to the guitars you make and being honest with yourself is probably a faster course to making good guitars. Also some unflinching listening to what a spectrum of players and occasional dealers say about them helps. But for me working band listening to high level guitarists and being honest with yourself is very helpful. There really isn’t a path unless you’re born into one of those legacy families, and even then some folks show more natural aptitude than others.

The thing that almost intrigues me and that I muse on sometimes, is why do modern people in our time to try to find shortcuts through technology, when our greatest examples of our work were created in pre industrial eras?



Ricardo -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 14:19:23)

quote:

At the saddle, the strings are 9mm above the soundboard, but the action on the fingerboard is the lowest I have ever seen, much less played regularly.


The OP just wanted to understand what a “flamenco set up is”. Before we bust out the heavy physics, and no offense to any builders or fav guitars of folks, but this here is plain normal classical set up. I have several guitars like this, where, in order to play the thing like normal the bridge is down there and takes the strings super low like that because of the incorrect neck angle. It is not easy to get it right, if it is even the intent. Often we see old guitars that owners feel the neck has moved forward, obviously more than intended, with 4mm at 12, and super low bridge with no white showing. That might seem like a “problem” to many, but the intent is clear. I of course can play low action guitars with high bridge and make them sound clean….my Sanchis that EVERYBODY loves and I have had so many offers to buy it, is such a guitar. But it is the wrong set up, and I have bled all over the thing. [:D] It is exactly like what you describe above, so I can imagine.



gerundino63 -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 14:55:39)

@Ricardo,

I remeber some horror pictures is the past.[:D]



JasonM -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 15:45:03)

quote:

I remeber some horror pictures is the past.


Yeah, like didnt the headstock scarf joint break on that guitar? ; )

@Richard, re action of sub 2mm, I forgot that sometimes its measured with a capo at the first fret to isolate from the nut. That makes more sense.



estebanana -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 19 2023 16:19:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

At the saddle, the strings are 9mm above the soundboard, but the action on the fingerboard is the lowest I have ever seen, much less played regularly.


The OP just wanted to understand what a “flamenco set up is”. Before we bust out the heavy physics, and no offense to any builders or fav guitars of folks, but this here is plain normal classical set up. I have several guitars like this, where, in order to play the thing like normal the bridge is down there and takes the strings super low like that because of the incorrect neck angle. It is not easy to get it right, if it is even the intent. Often we see old guitars that owners feel the neck has moved forward, obviously more than intended, with 4mm at 12, and super low bridge with no white showing. That might seem like a “problem” to many, but the intent is clear. I of course can play low action guitars with high bridge and make them sound clean….my Sanchis that EVERYBODY loves and I have had so many offers to buy it, is such a guitar. But it is the wrong set up, and I have bled all over the thing. [:D] It is exactly like what you describe above, so I can imagine.



Well sure 9milli is too high for quadro work etc.

The one I gave to Jason ( cutaway negra) is 3mm at. Bass
E and just under 3 mm at 12th treble, but the saddle is just under 7.5mm. Like it should be.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 20 2023 5:21:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM
@Richard, re action of sub 2mm, I forgot that sometimes its measured with a capo at the first fret to isolate from the nut. That makes more sense.


It doesn't make that much difference with the action as low as it is.

RNJ



Richard Jernigan -> RE: What's a good flameco guitar action? (Apr. 20 2023 5:30:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

The OP just wanted to understand what a “flamenco set up is”. Before we bust out the heavy physics, and no offense to any builders or fav guitars of folks, but this here is plain normal classical set up. I have several guitars like this, where, in order to play the thing like normal the bridge is down there and takes the strings super low like that because of the incorrect neck angle. It is not easy to get it right, if it is even the intent. Often we see old guitars that owners feel the neck has moved forward, obviously more than intended, with 4mm at 12, and super low bridge with no white showing. That might seem like a “problem” to many, but the intent is clear. I of course can play low action guitars with high bridge and make them sound clean….my Sanchis that EVERYBODY loves and I have had so many offers to buy it, is such a guitar. But it is the wrong set up, and I have bled all over the thing. [:D] It is exactly like what you describe above, so I can imagine.


Yes. Go with Ricardo's advice about setup.

I only brought up the anomalous guitar because it was said that a guitar with extraordinarily low action couldn't be pushed. The guitar in question actually has to be pushed in order to project. And it does project, if you get after it.

I haven't tried it with lower tension strings. It's not my favorite guitar because I don't have a favorite.

The ones I didn't play much have been sold, or I gave one to the local guitar society since it was decent, and not particularly expensive.

RNJ



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