RE: Madrid vs Granada

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mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

they are not too expensive

6-8k
you must be loaded!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 18:14:01

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to mark indigo)

The plain truth is one guys lemon is an other guys dream guitar

???sorry i dont understand this phrase.
my english language is poor,and google translate is a shi t translator,the translation of this with google dont mean nothing
Can you tell in spanish?
Or in english but what mean exactly.

Or in french

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 12:05:34

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to el carbonero)

quote:

The plain truth is one guys lemon is an other guys dream guitar

???sorry i dont understand this phrase.

in this context "lemon" means bad.... think of a mouthful of raw lemon juice and you get the idea

he's saying that one guy will think the guitar is the worst, another guy will think the same guitar is the best.

another strange english idiom for saying the same thing is "one man's meat is another man's poison"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 13:36:07

flyhere

Posts: 121
Joined: Dec. 17 2012

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:09:18

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 14:22:15

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

they are not too expensive

6-8k
you must be loaded!

I have several condes, most bought used, and never had to pay that price. I am speaking generally for used instruments over the years and not about todays market. Conde has gone up for a reason as have other makes. Relative to collectors instruments in 10k-30K range, conde is quite affordable even now. I am not trying to sell anything just answering the "why" question regarding constant popularity. Guitar players make a big deal but if you played a different instrument, say flute in school, even back in say 1995, those things were already 10K for an average one. A $4000 Conde was a decent price for a fantastic guitar back then when I first got one. Lets not even get into say cellos or contra bass from the period which is a basic requirement if you want to be in a mediocre orchestra.

About lemons, yes as stated used cars I borrowed the derogatory descriptor for guitars, as it's similar concept. A "guitarra de mierda" might be a "tesoro" in otras manos.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 19:33:24

flyhere

Posts: 121
Joined: Dec. 17 2012

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:06:05

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 21:05:27

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
but if you played a different instrument, say flute in school, even back in say 1995, those things were already 10K for an average one. A $4000 Conde was a decent price for a fantastic guitar back then when I first got one. Lets not even get

My friend plays the flute and back in 2002 he bought one which he say is medium to good and it cost him AU15000.
And he said it's far from top of the range. I just look at him thinking whether I should kidnap him.

But talking about testing the different condes.. It's easy for a good player like yourself to test it..
how do beginners/intermediate people test it? SO hard.. so I think smaller builders would be a better bet,
smaller builders would strive to give out better guitars to increase their reputation etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 22:44:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
but if you played a different instrument, say flute in school, even back in say 1995, those things were already 10K for an average one. A $4000 Conde was a decent price for a fantastic guitar back then when I first got one. Lets not even get

My friend plays the flute and back in 2002 he bought one which he say is medium to good and it cost him AU15000.
And he said it's far from top of the range. I just look at him thinking whether I should kidnap him.

But talking about testing the different condes.. It's easy for a good player like yourself to test it..
how do beginners/intermediate people test it? SO hard.. so I think smaller builders would be a better bet,
smaller builders would strive to give out better guitars to increase their reputation etc.

alright alright, I'll be painful honest cuz i had a couple vinos. When folks say an expensive top name guitar is mediocre or bad, we guys who play just kind of scratch our heads wtf, fool can't play so doesn't know how good it is. cuz a good player can make a cheap chinese guitar sound nice great, but would we buy it? well if that's all we can afford sure, and in the end it don't matter. we pay the extra thousands for those details we know are so much nicer. If the 50k guitar was so much better, yes we simply have to find a way, get a loan to get the thing. But fortunately that is not the case. So i repeat , there is hype because ONE GUYS LEMON IS ANOTHER GUYS GOLD when it comes to guitars. So don't worry that you can't play good. If the guitar has a good rep and you like it, it is good.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 29 2013 6:06:42

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to mark indigo)

ok thank you all for the explication of lemon.

in french lemon is a fruit(citron) and only that.

4000 for a good used conde is not expensive.
i have mine since 1 week and i tried in 4 different room of baile course,and it's very powerfull and well balanced.

And watch the media luna in the mirror is so cool

The student dont understand nothing about guitar,yet they said wahouu great sound ,without know the price or the label of the guitar.

holyevil,
i think a beginner,dont need a guitar like thaht ,because he can't outputting the sound.there guitar for players who have a little experience.

I remember the first time i started flamenco,one day my first teacher ,give me a good conde negra,and a good ramirez,for taste,and i have not heard the difference with my 300$ guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 29 2013 8:50:17

lohan

Posts: 70
Joined: Nov. 29 2020

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to mark indigo)

Why Granada guitars are cheaper than Madrid guitars? for Example, Bellido Family's guitar are cheaper although they are among the Tops..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 28 2021 17:58:13

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to mark indigo)

Basically because they are more honest than some Madrid people

No offence meant for anybody.
IMHO 2 main reasons are that Marin Montero - the local champion - always wanted the price of his guitars to be accessible to real musicians. If the main guy sells for a certain price, the other people decide their prices consequently. Makers in Granada know each other’s and are a kind of community (or at least it used to be as John Ray wrote here time ago) with high standards and strong roots.
Second reason (imho) is that market makes the price: the Bellido have a big name for their flamenco guitars, which is not a rich market in itself, and they sell mostly local.

What I can say is that I don’t know Jesús Bellido enough - I met him just once - but his uncle Pepe is a quality and honest man, a man rooted in the traditions - and I find these qualities also in his guitars.
I’d like to mention Andres Marvi and John Ray as well for such a good impression as makers and human beings they made on me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2021 8:34:39

lohan

Posts: 70
Joined: Nov. 29 2020

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to Echi)

Thanks Echi.. I always enjoy when i read your replies.. your words always fit to my questions..You are helping me. Thanks 🙏

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2021 8:53:39

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to mark indigo)

Happy if someone enjoys an opinion.
My take is that the Flamenco guitars of Granada - at least those I am familiar with - have their own distinctive character. Also the guitars of Bellido have their own clear imprint which is quite different from that of other guitar makers.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2021 10:35:18

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to lohan)

I wrote this before Echi published his response, sorry about the repetition of ideas.

More people buy guitars made by Antonio Marín than any other single maker so that makes us look to him. I know that Antonio has always wanted his guitars to be accessible to players so he has always kept his prices low. He has always made many, many guitars even when he worked alone so he can make a good living even with lower prices. In reality, all of the makers of the previous generation were very, very productive. It is no secret that in the sixties Granada makers made guitars for some of the bigger Madrid labels. For a long time no one here felt like they could charge more than Antonio so that kept all prices low. However, now some people charge more than Antonio. The other thing that happened is that the tradition of the guitar-maker in Madrid is one of a commercial mind-set. Many high-profile guitar-makers in Madrid have a shopfront or sell a cheaper line of guitars made elsewhere while here in Granada that only happens in actual dealers’ shops. All of the guitar-makers here just have workshops. So I think Madrid builders were better at promotion of their guitars and using pricing to add to their prestige. Of course the obvious thing is that the cost of living is higher in Madrid. There is no doubt that Granada guitars are every bit as good as Madrid guitars; some would even say they are better.

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John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2021 13:12:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to Echi)

quote:

Happy if someone enjoys an opinion.
My take is that the Flamenco guitars of Granada - at least those I am familiar with - have their own distinctive character. Also the guitars of Bellido have their own clear imprint which is quite different from that of other guitar makers.

I have two guitarrerro encyclopedias by Leal Pinar. One for the makers of andalucía (including all the Granada builders) the other for Madrid only. While I am certain some luthiers are left out of both volumes, and certain individuals are included in both, the fact remains the Madrid book is twice as big. Basically the world of guitar building in madrid is much much bigger. As was pointed out, a small community has a single “hero” such as Marin Montero as mentioned, but Madrid has too many of those. Prices globally reflect this situation.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2021 17:47:05

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 30 2021 5:09:14

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2021 3:38:15

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Madrid vs Granada (in reply to mark indigo)

Well, the difference is that in Madrid there was Ramirez III.
He basically set a whole productive system of guitars involving a lot of individuals. Beyond training a lot of luthiers to a very high standard, Ramirez was able to set a sought after Brand and to promote his guitars internationally. Big numbers.
A lot of people in Madrid have been involved in some grade in the success of Ramirez: some people learnt the lesson of Ramirez (Contreras, Conde etc.) and follow the track and the methods.
A lot of people in Madrid took advantage of an oiled set up and of the know-how of former employees.
As John said, in Granada there was/is a community of individual makers each one making and selling their own guitars. Different set-up, different market and prices.
In the last 20 years things are changing because some big dealers became the agents of individual luthiers and took care of promoting them internationally and to make their name a Brand and their price rise.
This model (dealer hiring /promoting individual luthiers) surpassed the old model (companies employing individual luthiers - example: Ramirez, Kohno, Contreras and formerly Conde)
In the world of flamenco there are a couple of shops I know which definitely took a dominant position towards the makers and set the trend for the customers.
All the marketing involved is the source of many misunderstandings about guitars.
Anders (very missed) wrote about this situation here in the foro.
Good part is that individual luthiers may use the social media or their connection with players to promote themselves in other ways than this.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2021 9:23:08