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Solera Flamenca Strings
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kitarist
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Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to JasonM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonM Wow, I didn’t know that. Interesting. So if there are only 3 nylon formulations, what does each string brand do differently to be unique besides change diameter? Are they specifying density or additives, maybe? I know the Aquila guy experiments with additives. Aquila is its own universe; apart from extruding their own nylon strings, they also utilize new materials they discovered, for example their nylgut (synthetic gut string) which is a type of polyester; the sugar polymer; also blends of sugar and nylgut (as you can actually mix those); also other things specially for g-strings. So I'll put them aside for the moment, even for the nylon question you asked. The string companies have very limited options to be different; apart from marketing and combining in sets and choosing different plastics producers. They have to rely on the plastics producers to make the actual strings, and those are offered in standard diameters from a given plastics producer. Maybe across the few producers there is in total a larger variety offered if they sell slightly different diameters but it's not clear if that's the case (I've only seen the DuPont availability sheet for Tynex). Also there is no ability to make different PA 612. Though due to working conditions at the plastics plant or some proprietary differences in the manufacturing process (which is not public info) there might be some slight property differences like stiffness. (but keep in mind nylon stiffness varies with temperature and relative humidity anyway). So essentially if you know what the exact nylon is - say PA 612 - that pretty much locks in the physical and musical properties apart from the diameter. The "real" reason the plastics producers offer PA 612 is for toothbrushes (and for some paintbrushes) bristles. They would only make transparent, black, or white; unless some custom order - but musical nylon strings are a tiny market compared to that for toothbrushes, paintbrushes, or even for fishing line (the latter PA 6 or PA 66 so no good for guitar strings; unless it is PVDF "carbon" but here we are just talking about the nylon options). For example the 28,32,40 mils sizes (i.e. 0.028, 0.032, 0.040 in, or approx. 0.71, 0.81, 1.01mm for e, b, g trebles) happen to be on the DuPont Tynex availability list among others, and they are good for medium tension nylon trebles. But you can't order say 28.6 mils for e-treble from DuPont to be different from other string companies - it is simply not on the availability list, so you have to see what other diameters other plastics producers offer, if any different; or just stick with 28 mils. They sell them to string companies in 'hanks' of about 1.5-2 kg - a bundle some 4-5cm diameter with hundreds of straight nylon strings inside, at whatever standard length DuPont, say, chooses, like "117cm +- 3cm". One interesting thing to keep in mind is that the 'identical' strings in that bundle are not identical in diameter between one another but vary in a Gaussian sense around the mean diameter. So for example a bundle with 0.71 mm strings would have a Gaussian distribution inside of diameters from about 0.70 to 0.72, or larger variation if quality control was not very tight. This is a consequence of having dies with up to 250 holes to make that many strings simultaneously in the extrusion process: there are (unavoidable) micro-differences in temperature across that die so even if the holes are identical, the strings come out with slight variation in diameter. The string companies can add some colour dye but that's about it in terms of customizing after the manufacturing at the plastics plant. Apparently that addition would not change the density appreciably. quote:
ORIGINAL: JasonM You can see Luthier’s machines in this video. I guess these are the winders you are referring to. https://youtu.be/iImliDEX8Ik Thanks, that's great. Yes, these are just winders. Nylon monofilament extruders are complex big machines and difficult to calibrate and run. And that's just for nylon varieties (PA =Polyamide). The extruders for "carbon" strings, i.e. for PVDF = Polyvinylidene fluoride, are a nightmare to run as there's risk, unless monitored very tightly, while in process, of explosion, or decomposition of the melted polymer, and of release of hydrofluoric (HF) acid which is like the stuff of horror movies (Side note - it is what some of the "Breaking Bad"'s main characters used for dissolving... um... some "parts"). However, once the carbon string is produced, it is extremely stable chemically and non-absorbing, which is why PVDF is what pipes, bottles and filters in nanopure water or other ultra-clean systems are made out of.
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Konstantin
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Date Dec. 13 2020 5:34:28
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kitarist
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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo quote:
there's risk while in process of explosion, or decomposition of the polymer, and of release of hydrofluoric (HF) acid which is like the stuff of nightmares Try our new Explosive Strings! Your music will be in a constant state of decomposition and your picados will release hydrofluoric acid duende on the listener! Yes, joke, but just in case someone else thinks it is more, I clarified in my post above by underlining "in process", clarifying that I was referring to the melted polymer, and adding another brief paragraph stating that the finished product is actually extremely stable chemically, so much so that it is what is used in filters, bottles, pipes for any systems requiring ultra-pure conditions.
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Konstantin
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Date Dec. 13 2020 21:04:43
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kitarist
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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to AndresK)
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quote:
for the given tensions they have This reminds me it will be good to post here a summary of another very important point for guitarists, on listed string tensions by string companies. What is on the package (let's assume no typos/errors in it) is off-guitar, unstretched string, tension - as calculated by a (completely valid, physics-based) formula based on the unstretched diameter of the string, some reference scale length, the intended pitch frequency, and the material density. But this unstretched-string tension is really of no use to guitarists. The tension of the strings when on the guitar is never what the posted tension is - since the strings stretch and thus the real diameter of each string is reduced, this lowers the real tension the string needs to be at to be at pitch. What we need is not the apparent, unstretched new string, off-guitar tension, but instead the real, functional tensions for on-guitar strings which have stabilized enough (i.e. past the initial period of fairly rapid stretching and losing pitch). It is very frustrating that not only do the string companies not provide that, but everyone who sells strings is forced by this practice to keep doing the same - list the unstretched pre-guitar tensions. Where this pre-guitar tension is especially misleading and even affects possible string purchases is when we see that some treble e-string etc. made from "carbon" or sugar polymer or nylgut has very high posted such tension. I have been freaked out in the past by some very high listed tensions and chose not to try some strings believing my guitar cannot handle these; but this is completely wrong. The reason non-nylon materials for e-treble (most obvious with e-treble) have higher off-guitar tensions listed (than same string for nylon) is because they stretch a lot more than PA 612, about twice as much. So the off-guitar tensions are still designed so that the actual, stabilized on-guitar tensions will be about the same as that of PA 612 nylons strings. For example PVDF "carbon" stretches more, so the apparent e-treble tension is higher, but the stabilized on-guitar tension is about the same as nylon because the string's diameter decreases by a bit more due to the material stretching more before getting to a quasi-steady state. Similarly for sugar and nylgut. Separately, if you look at normal PA 612 nylon apparent pre-guitar tension - i.e. what is posted on the string sets as tension, you get a typical tension profile from 1 to 6 L to R like this, very uneven - but this is also by design and due to similar considerations but involving diameter: The reason for this uneven pre-guitar unstretched string tension profile is because smaller diameter nylon stretches more than larger diameter, and this profile itself has been designed to compensate so that, in quasi-stable condition on the guitar, the actual, functional, tension would be more even: e-treble would come down in tension more than b-treble would (hence the pre-guitar tensions designed are with e-treble having higher tension than b-treble). And for basses the same, though a bit more subdued difference due to combination of different materials - D-bass would stretch out a bit more than A-bass; E-bass the least, so again the quasi-stable actual tension on the guitar would be more even across the basses as well. So in summary, ____(1) non-nylon treble strings material stretches out more than nylon, and ____(2) within the trebles of the same material - be it nylon or carbon or other - the thinner strings stretch out more than the thicker ones. For these reasons the listed pre-guitar, unstretched string tension profile looks the way it does and it gets a steeper gradient for non-nylon material. However, the stabilized, on-guitar actual tension profile is about the same across all materials (designed to be that way) - and is a a lot flatter than the listed one. Finally, it would be ideal if the real stable tension profile is completely flat, i.e. every string yields in about the same way when pushed across it on the guitar at a usual playing point. This was not possible for nylon because the g-treble would have had to be even thicker (about 1.12 mm so more than 10% thicker than what is used) and sounded very dull when this was experimented with. So the compromise was to have the maximum diameter - around 1mm - for g-treble that 1940s guitarists can tolerate the sound of, which meant it yielded a bit more when pushed compared to e- and b- trebles as its real tension is a bit lower than it should be for 'even feel'.
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Konstantin
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Date Dec. 13 2020 21:57:20
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kitarist
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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan Some string makers visibly process the treble strings they buy from the plastic manufacturers. The Savarez "red cards" I have been using on my blancas for decades do not have the shiny surface of unprocessed nylon monofilament. They appear to have been very slightly abraded, giving them a cloudy surface. Savarez says they have been processed to ensure uniform diameter from end to end. The process makes them very slightly less slippery than unprocessed monofilament. These strings are an example of so-called 'rectified' strings. They are monofilament extruded nylon strings that are literally ground with a centerless grinder in order to ensure that they are perfectly circular in their cross-section (and maybe also having the same diameter along their length). (I don't know for sure if it is the plastics producer or the string companies who elect to do that grinding; maybe more likely the string companies) They exist because they were introduced at a time (1960s-1970s) when extruder technology was not refined enough - no calibrators, no gear pumps; also more limited selection of diameters. The chief problem was that the extruded nylon strings were frequently oval, rather than circular, in cross-section. So rectified strings were introduced as a solution to that problem - they take the oval and make a perfect round string with a grinder. One pass with the grinder - you can get a perfectly round string. Second pass - you can make a smaller-diameter round string out of it, so the added benefit of offering rectified strings was the increase in availability of different diameters. The one side effect was that the string's surface remains somewhat rougher than extruded nylon - which was an issue for a lot of gutiarists, but others preferred that different sensation. After extruders updated to a gear pump this has technically removed the need for rectified strings, and they are now just a preference option for those who like them. Gear pump extruders produce round strings, but still have statistical variation in diameter of the same batch due to microscopic temperature differences (it makes for microscopic variations in viscosity of the melted nylon across the die so slightly thicker or thinner strands as this affects the individual strand flow speed). But now one plastics producer has in addition a sophisticated calibrator of some sort to compensate for this - they are in Japan; the company is Toray, and their trebles are basically all of the same diameter in that bundle they come in. quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan D'Addario and maybe some others say their trebles are "laser gauged," again to insure end to end uniformity in diameter. This seems to be a quality control process, rather than an additional treatment of the extruded monofilament. RNJ Yes, it is a quality control process at string companies - however since you can check just one string at a time, it is a sample testing procedure of some sort - say test 1-10 random strings per bundle, etc. But it is still mostly about the diameter variation across strings of the same batch rather than about diameter variation within the same string; the latter just seems to be consistent because the extruder process is designed to deliver that. D'Addario buys all their Pro Arte nylon trebles from Toray (see above - the guys with the calibrator). Witness reports are that their (D'Addario's) own laser checker just sits unplugged in a side room - they don't need to use it anymore
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Konstantin
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Date Dec. 16 2020 3:42:47
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kitarist
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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin Even if it evens out somewhat, does the on-guitar tension profile keep the same overall shape as the graph you posted for pre-guitar tension profile? I think it is supposed to get pretty flat, maybe with a dip for g-treble. That's exactly what we can all try to find out by doing pretty simple measurements and knowing a few parameters. You might ask why the string company doesn't just post the expected stretching amount (and thus reduction in diameter) - isn't it the same 'stretching ratio' for the same material (once we know what nylon (or non-nylon) it is and know the unstretched string diameter). Where 'stretching ratio' is defined as stabilized on-guitar string versus in-package string - either diameter change or length change. There is a complication - nylon is stretched in the oven at the plastics plant then extruded, but the exact parameters of the process are proprietary and differ from manufacturer to manufacturer. These differences produce nylon with different 'stretching ratio' for a given diameter. (BTW this seems to imply that the real tension might be slightly different between two sets of trebles from the same nylon and same unstretched diameters, but different manufacturers (!)). So we are back to actually doing the measurement of string diameters after pitch stabilization - we can get not only the real tension on-guitar, but also an estimate of the experimental stretching ratio for the nylon associated with the specific manufacturer. Ideally, a lot of us can do this and we can start identifying, for a given string material, which strings are made by the same manufacturer. This is assuming a manufacturer does not vary their process parameters so we are assuming the stretching ratio is the same for a given nylon for a given manufacturer. quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin There was a Luciano video not long ago where he said that he used low tension on 1, 4, 5 and 6, and high tension on 2 and 3 to even out the tension profile. My first guess would be that he also was misled by the on-package tensions thinking they show the on-guitar stabilized tension, so in a way he might be over-compensating by making the real tension uneven in the other direction, resulting in an inverted real tension profile (inverted shape compared to the on-package one). Or maybe he knows all about this real vs. hypothetical tension, though if so, I am not sure I understand his described choice. I'll try to find some papers that might show what the real tension profile is supposed to be, at least conceptually, and report here. I seem to vaguely remember seeing at least one paper where the authors had some graphs with time to pitch stabilization; hopefully other parameters that can give us something. The best would be to just do measurements, as long as we do them accurately. We have to measure both the unstretched out-of-package and the stabilized on-guitar string diameters - not just the stabilized one - i.e. don't trust the package diameters given the Gaussian variability or the propensity for typos.
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Konstantin
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Date Dec. 16 2020 6:05:30
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