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The "lacquer sound"?
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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 The "lacquer sound"?
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Over the years I've worked on many instruments, some finished in nitro lacquer and some in shellac. I believe at this point that I can actually tell the difference based on certain tone qualities, and I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this. I'm not saying that one or the other is "better", though I can say I've almost universally preferred the French polished guitars. There are confounding factors though, such as the fact that generally, not always, cheaper guitars are more likely to be lacquered and more expensive guitars French polished.
The difference, to my ears, is that the lacquered guitars tend to have this certain distinctive boominess in the bass. The funny thing is that it can make the guitars appear quite loud, compared with some French polished guitars. But there is this sort of slightly unfocused or blended quality to the sound. Sort of like looking out on a humid day vs. totally clear, crisp weather or biting into a soft apple vs. a crisp one.
I could be crazy but I've noticed a pattern over a pretty large sample size. Once again, not saying lacquer is necessarily a worse finish, in fact some people may prefer that sound. Just sharing my observations 
_____________________________
Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date Jun. 17 2020 3:05:55
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: The "lacquer sound"? (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
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Turns out all but one of my classicals are French polished. The odd one out is in catalyzed polyurethane. I have two flamencas in catalyzed polyurethane, one in nitro.
The younger of the poly flamencas is 38 years old, the other is 53. In my experience, over a period of years the polyurethane thins down quite a bit and becomes stiff. When played softly or medium, the trebles are not quite as edgy as on the French polished classicals, but with flamenco right hand technique they are brilliant and the basses growl.
The nitro flamenca is less than a year old. It definitely doesn't have a boomy bass, though it's quite adequate. In fact the bass may be developing a little more with age and playing. The trebles can be very brilliant whether soft or loud. It's the only guitar I have owned on which I enjoy playing both classical and flamenco. Still, I think it has a different sound than a French polished guitar. I would be hard put to describe the difference. Maybe the very highest overtones are damped a little? I would expect the nitro to outgas and harden some with time, but I have no experience with that.
For me, each of the guitars I own has a distinctively different character. In fact that's the main reason I have bought each one.
Guitars are like wine and women. The better they are, the more unique they are--my opinion as an amateur guitarist.
(Though I may be a polyguitarist, I have almost always been a one woman man--at any point in time.)
RNJ
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Date Jun. 17 2020 4:12:13
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: The "lacquer sound"? (in reply to Echi)
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I hear differences among the instruments played on Solera Flamenca's web site. If I were in the market for another guitar, it might influence which ones I wanted to try. The same goes for Mundo Flamenco. Solera Flamenca sticks mainly to the same two players. Mundo Flamenco features an occasional guest pro, but all the samples are by the same player. i don't think I would buy one from either site without playing it for a while, and comparing it with others.
I have mentioned before an interesting experience at the shop of Arturo Huipe in Paracho. He showed me two guitars, one French polished, the other lacquered with nitrocellulose. For materials the guitars were as similar as any two guitars I have seen. Top, back and sides were clearly from the same trees, indeed from nearby or adjacent planks in the same trees. I can't speak to plate thickness, fan strut dimensions or the like. Huipe assured me they were as near alike as possible. I like Huipe, but I don't know him well enough to accept everything he says unconditionally. I can't think why he would intentionally make (or contract for) one guitar worse than the other. The French polished guitar was more expensive, but I thought the difference was easily appropriate to the increased labor for French polish.
The French polished guitar was quite superior. The nitro guitar was much duller and quieter. I bought the French polished one. After I got it back to Austin I found I didn't play it much. I'd say it was on the border between a very good student guitar and a possible concert instrument. I ended up giving it to the local guitar society.
RNJ
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Date Jun. 19 2020 3:48:40
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ernandez R
Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: The "lacquer sound"? (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear
quote:
I hear differences among the instruments played on Solera Flamenca's web site. If I were in the market for another guitar, it might influence which ones I wanted to try
Richard,
It has been some time since we got together with my flamenco guitar finished with lacquer.
Good or bad, could you give me an indication of how it is developing with its articulation and tone?
That particular guitar gave me a lot of trouble in its finish-out toward the end, until all of a sudden things started leveling out and fell into place.
All I'm asking is an honest evaluation of the aging, which I know you would give, especially since I'm not seeking additional business at this time, thanks.
Tom,
Was this guitar top finished in lacquer as well?
How long does the lacquer take to gas out compleatly gas out and then and harden compleatly compared to shellac? I've noticed on mine that at about nine months I can't smell the shellac through the sound hole and the guitars brightened up some about the same time. I've only shellacked four at this point so that is my baseline.
HR
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
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Date Jun. 20 2020 21:07:15
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: The "lacquer sound"? (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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Here's Tom's first post about this instrument, his number 329, a 1987 Manuel Reyes style spruce/Indian. It's dated almost exactly two years ago. The label is dated 2-1-19, but the check I wrote the day after I first saw it is dated 12-11-2019.
Tom asked me to bring my Arcangel Fernandez blanca down to San Antonio to compare. He expressed some uncertainty about his guitar. I took the '67 Ramirez too. After some comparison Tom said he was relieved that #329 stood up well.
When Tom played #329 and asked my opinion, the first words out of my mouth were, "It's new, isn't it." This was not a criticism. In my experience, new spruce top guitars develop considerably in the first few months of playing. The guitar was loud, with very brilliant trebles. I remember playing a Reyes blanca at Richard Brunés shop a few years ago. Richard described the trebles as "glassy." I'm not very good at the usual descriptive words for guitar tone, but I suppose that might apply to #329 when it was brand new.
Tom said he had been concerned about the basses, but he felt they were adequate. They didn't growl quite like the other two guitars, but they certainly supported the trebles.
I play different guitars over time, but Tom's has been played more than any other since I've had it. Shortly after I got it home, I noticed I could play classical as well as flamenco on it, the only guitar I have ever owned like that. Tom had it set up for flamenco, maybe 2 1/2mm at the 12th fret for the 6th string. The fifth string buzzed a little when fretted at the ninth fret, an important note in a classical piece i play. I took the guitar to the great repairman Mark Erlewine here in town and asked him to make a saddle one millimeter higher, raising the action to 3mm at the 12th fret for the 6th string, still OK for flamenco.
It's always hard for me to tell how much a guitar has changed, and how much the change is due to my learning how to play it. That said, I think the basses have come in more solidly, and have plenty of flamenco growl. When I tuned the 6th string down to D to work on Ramon Montoya's Rondeña, it even seemed to gain a little in volume.
If anything, the trebles have increased in brilliance. And the pulsacion of the high tension D'Addario EJ-46s feels softer than the same strings on Tom's cedar/Indian Rodriguez model classical with the same scale length that I own. Also softer than the Savarez "red cards" on the '67 Ramirez blanca. Maybe about the same as the Arcangel with the lower tension Savarez "white cards." But moving toward the bridge with the right hand, or putting a capo on II or III stiffens up the feel of #329. There's plenty of percussion in rasgueados anywhere between the soundhole and the bridge. Pulsacion is perfectly fine with no capo.
The response of the guitar is very even, there are no loud or soft notes anywhere on the fingerboard. It is as even as any guitar I own or remember playing. I particularly like this about the instrument, for both flamenco and classical.
Compared to the Arcangel and the Ramirez, #329's trebles are more brilliant with the same touch. #329's basses aren't quite as loud, but they are plenty loud enough. Some of the classical guitars are better for classical. They can produce a "fuller" tone. For flamenco, #329 is certainly as good as any other i own.
It's not clear how much it will continue to change. Spruce guitars often continue to improve for 2 or 3 years. At present it's a great pleasure to play for either genre.
RNJ
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Date Jun. 21 2020 2:03:04
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