Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
RE: Tip joint in arpeggio
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login | |
|
kitarist
Posts: 1711
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
|
RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to hamia)
|
|
|
quote:
but the main power is a very rapid sideways snap/pull delivered by the middle knuckle. Not really. Remember that during that apparent middle joint flexion, the string is ALSO being pressed into the guitar the whole time (so that , when released, it will deliver a proper full and loud tone). That force pushing the string into the guitar comes from the flexion of the knuckle (MCP) joint and is the crucial contribution to a full, loud sound from the stroke. Conversely, consider this: If you try to do flexion from the middle (PIP) joint while keeping the knuckle (MCP) joint fixed at some angle, all you are doing is adding counter-tension by activating the extensor to work against the flexor superficialis just enough to APPEAR to keep the MCP joint immobile - but actually the result of balancing of two opposing forces at the knuckle joint. The flexor still works on the middle joint, so you see flexion of the middle joint only. Try this to convince yourself, say with the right-hand index finger, WHILE gently touching the top (dorsal side) of the finger with the palm side of you left-hand index finger - just rest it lightly on top of your RH index finger, just touching. Now do a sudden flexion only from the middle joint of RH finger - you will feel a slight push/movement into the underside of your LH index finger - because the extensor muscle got activated and for a brief moment the forces at the knuckle joint were not quite perfectly counter-balanced so the RH finger extended just slightly from its knuckle joint. So, moving mostly or only from the middle joint is ADDING more forces - more tension - to only make it appear so. A static balance of opposing forces - of unproductive tension - eventually leads to issues down the line. In general, it is not possible to infer unambiguously the muscles and forces at work from just looking at apparent movement. Here is a nice drawing showing the anatomy and mechanics of a finger :
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
Attachment (1)
_____________________________
Konstantin
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 3 2020 19:17:59
|
|
kitarist
Posts: 1711
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
|
RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to hamia)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: hamia quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist quote:
but the main power is a very rapid sideways snap/pull delivered by the middle knuckle. Not really. Remember that during that apparent middle joint flexion, the string is ALSO being pressed into the guitar the whole time (so that , when released, it will deliver a prope Remember! Ha ha, dude I do understand what I am talking about (I spent 6 years at university studying physics for whatever that's worth) - you might have misunderstood my meaning which is another matter . Let's recap - you said Paco's videos are pretty clear - that he plays with the 'middle knuckle method' as you call it in which according to you "the main power is a very rapid sideways snap/pull delivered by the middle knuckle". My objection was that since the string is also being displaced into the guitar during that apparent middle joint flexion - the force for which cannot come through the middle joint but through the knuckle joint - what you claimed cannot be correct. From the rest of your reply, it seems you think there is no displacement in the into-guitar direction with the 'middle-joint method', and by implication, you think Paco is not displacing into the guitar either. (or else how can you dismiss my argument? Or are you agreeing with me just presenting a hypothetical different scenario which is unrelated to Paco's videos you commented on? And are you agreeing with the mechanics of middle-joint-only movement I described - that it just adds counter forces and thus more tension? Did you do the index finger experiment?) Well, he (Paco) definitely is, it is an observable fact. Also, it is a settled science that you need to do that in order to produce a good tone and volume. I don't know how you are not hearing a difference, but it is night and day. For a visual confirmation - if you do your experiment again, look along the plane of the strings from 6 to 1 while doing it - the string dips into the guitar (so it deviates from that plane of view) while you push it sideways even with the 'middle joint method'. One possible source of confusion, sometimes, is that some students think 'pushing into the guitar' means doing ONLY that - without any horizontal displacement of the string at all - and alternatively, that having some horizontal displacement means one is not pushing into the guitar properly or at all. But there is always a contribution from both, with rest stroke typically having a larger into-guitar displacement component than free stroke does. Lastly, what does it matter if you had 6 years of physics - whether I knew that or not would not have changed what I wrote as a counter-argument (I meant to say 'recall that..'; not 'remember' - that's my ESL). I am still unclear if you agreed with me or not but it seemed like you didn't, hence the recap above to pin down on what and where. However, in case you do indeed think that there is no into-guitar component in Paco's stroke, despite observations, then we don't really have anything in common enough to discuss this further, though.
_____________________________
Konstantin
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 3 2020 23:45:00
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14746
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to kitarist)
|
|
|
quote:
However, in case you do indeed think that there is no into-guitar component in Paco's stroke, despite observations, then we don't really have anything in common enough to discuss this further, though. This sums it up. I show in my video how it would look From the side to trigger pull from PIP, and what that feels like. While the sound is not much different, the feeling certainly is. The visuals from other angles than the side are indistinguishable. Nobody can do that trigger pull to equivalent speed as MCP big knuckle drive. You can’t trigger pull without curling tip joint (as in tirando) so tip joint has to always collapse for any rest stroke. The simple fact PDL sometimes has stiff tip joints during PICADO proves he is pushing down from MCP. At best hamia could try to argue that each collapsed tip stroke was a PIP pull and the others are MCP push downs. Of course coordinating such a complex variation at such speeds would be ridiculous, but since I could do that slow myself, I could admit it as a remote possibility. This old argument stems from the Graff Martinez method, where he insisted the same. To be fair, the concept of trigger pull PIP apoyando even goes back to Aaron Shear classical guitar method, where after viewing a PDL video the first time, the optical illusion of it prompted me to try it myself. So while it’s a legitimate technique in theory, none of the guys I have seen are actually using it. Graff Martinz retracted his idea himself after many years of argument and carful study of the subject. Hamia will continue to cling to the concept despite evidence to the contrary. This is understandable since he has invested so much time into it. If he has indeed achieve desired results with it, I would not tell him to stop what he is doing. If he has a speed barrier, that’s a different story. In all honesty I doubt he is actually doing the PIP trigger pull I demonstrate, even if he thinks he is. Probably the most involved discussion we have had was this one: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=301923&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=hamia
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here: www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jun. 4 2020 18:34:19
|
|
New Messages |
No New Messages |
Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
Locked w/ New Messages |
Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.078125 secs.
|