Buying my first "real" Flamenco guitar

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abu7maid

Posts: 9
Joined: Nov. 3 2012

Buying my first "real" Fla...

Hi. So I have been a student of Flamenco for a while now ready to take it to the next level and getting a high end guitar.

I honestly haven't done that much research but 2 possibilities caught my eyes.

1. I had the utmost pleasure of watching Vicente Amigo perform last year. I'm pretty sure he would make a Yamaha guitar sound good but his guitar had the most beautiful tone I ever heard. I couldn't find any information on what guitar he uses is there any information out there like the original Luthier and around how much would they charge for it?

2. Vasillis Lazarides. I remember watching many years ago a project he made with LA Sonanta for Jeronimo Maya's signature guitar and also liked it.

Any other suggestions most welcome. My budget is not an issue thankfully and I hope to get some input from you guys.

Regards

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2019 13:10:12

crooksj5

Posts: 106
Joined: Jan. 7 2014

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

You most likely saw Vicente playing a Manuel Reyes Sr. Guitar, he is known as one of the best flamenco luthiers ever. He has passed away but to get one of his primera used guitars you are looking in the $15-20k range if you can find one.

There are some luthiers who make copies but it is the consensus of most that none have come close to the originals.

I have sent you a PM with some other guitar info.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2019 14:55:01

szvarga

Posts: 58
Joined: Mar. 11 2019

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

quote:

I'm pretty sure he would make a Yamaha guitar sound good

Exactly. And no one can make his guitar sounds that good: because that sound is in his fingers, not in his guitar(s). You can buy the guitar but you can't buy the sound. Nobody can.

My best advice is to buy by play and listen yourself, not by watch and listen others.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2019 15:01:00

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

When I take a decent photo, people (who know no better) ask "what kind of camera do you use?"

It's really annoying. I use a beautiful 60 year old Rolleiflex, a very expensive Sony RX1R or my iPhone. It depends on what I have with me at the time.

You might consider commissioning a modest guitar from one of our resident luthiers here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2019 16:54:22

Marchito

Posts: 16
Joined: Aug. 12 2018

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

I agree about the sound being in the player, not the guitar. But also we don’t wanna play bad guitars either and good guitars can motivate you to play more, learn more. Last year I commissioned my first build after a long research for the right luthier. I ended up choosing Jose Antonio Villalba Bernal, who builds 3-4 guitars a year only but they are usually excellent to my ears. I have enjoyed very much the building process itself, lasted 9 months. Josè has been super open and we shared very much, so now I feel the guitar really like my own. Waiting so long can be frustrating but also GAS curing (no purchase during the waiting) and I’m happy I haven’t bought one off the shelf instead. You can see it here: https://www.facebook.com/1276413163/posts/10214655968334322?s=100007721417667&v=i&sfns=mo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2019 17:32:56

abu7maid

Posts: 9
Joined: Nov. 3 2012

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to Escribano)

Hmm. That isn't the smartest analogy as cameras are different in functionality (keyword). For instance, your 60 year old Rolleiflex would have a slower shutter speed meaning it would be fitting for more still objects to evade any blur where as other modern cameras function in a completely opposite way that create zero blur (such as the ones used in sports).

Guitars on the other hand, function the same. A $50 factory guitar functions the same as a $10,000 guitar in that they have a certain number of strings and frets and play the same notes. The difference between them is the quality in that one would produce a better sound, maybe even play easier and lasts longer.

Anyway, I will take your suggestion into consideration

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 20 2019 21:21:33

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

I think what Simon (Escribano) was saying is it wasn’t the camera taking the picture, it was the photographer. In that sense, it’s a great analogy.

I believe the makers that frequent this Foro are building instruments that compare favourably to anything made anywhere, from any time period, by anybody. In many cases, these guitars are being sold at a bargain price when the quality is considered. There are also a lot of excellent makers who aren’t members of the Foro whose instruments are of very high quality and great value. If you could let us know where you are, we might be able to be more helpful in steering you in the right direction.

If budget is not an issue, then there are shops that specialize in high end instruments who often carry Reyes, as well as the guitars of other celebrated makers. There will be a price attached, but it is understandable why one may desire an instrument made by a recognized master. It doesn’t mean it’s going to be better. It really depends on what you want. But the point Simon (and pretty well everybody else) has made is well worth considering.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2019 1:18:08

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

I agree a good player can play well anything and any guitar - beyond a certain quality-level - can properly do the job.
There’s a YouTube video of Vicente occasionally playing ROMA on a reddish Sanchis Lopez and, well, it sound just as the usual Vicente.

This imho doesn't entails that all the guitars are the same though: the tonal palette of a certain guitar is instead peculiar of a specific maker (you may find fans of brands like Canon or Nikon or else as they have their own peculiarities ): I mean that while a good technique comes first, yet you should second your taste and look for a guitar with the tonal palette you like .

Good idea to ask one of the luthiers of this forum as they know their stuff.

If you instead prefer to go to the second hand market, I found that the old José Lopez Bellido and the maybe some spruce topped Ramirez, are the best options if you like the sweetness and roundness typical of Reyes but don’t want to spend a fortune.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2019 4:59:15

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to Escribano)

a used Manuel Reyes Sr. Guitar in the $15-20k range......
Simon is right : "You might consider commissioning a modest guitar from one of our resident luthiers here. " , whereas the word "modest" can be replaced with "excellent"!.

ciao
Giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2019 13:23:55

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

Hi abu7maid,

If you like a Reyes, but also a Lazarides, what do you specific like about them?

I played both of them, and It are two total different guitars. The sound, the pulse, stifness of the soudboard, playability......

So, what specific are you looking for?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2019 17:11:31

rombsix

Posts: 7807
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to gerundino63)

Hala bi Abu7maid. Odrobbbbbbb!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 21 2019 22:47:49

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

It's not as simple as that any good player can be paired to any good guitar. For example my father has always concidered his Gerundino to be his best flamencoguitar but he was not able to tame it because it needs a certain kind of player to open up. At the same time a player who can tame that Gerundino might not be able to play my Jose Ramirez. So character of the instrument and the player must match.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 22 2019 0:27:12

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

quote:

Any other suggestions most welcome. My budget is not an issue thankfully and I hope to get some input from you guys.

where are you in the world?

in UK there is a flamenco shop in London:- London Guitar Studio AKA El Mundo Flamenco. On Duke Street, just off Oxford Street near Bond Street Tube Station.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 22 2019 11:57:48

ric

Posts: 84
Joined: Dec. 27 2010

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

A few thoughts: What moves you? It might be good to focus on your own playing as opposed to the professional setting--bridging that gap between technique and the mundane.
When you pick up a guitar, can you easily discern what you like about it, what you don't like about it?
If you can, apply that knowledge/feeling to what is available locally. There are many players who say "when I picked up that guitar and played it, I HAD to have it!"
If that is NOT the case and you have the money, it doesn't really matter what guitar you buy, as you can grow into the guitar (by playing it and getting better) and hopefully you can discern the above, or resell the guitar and get what sounds good for you and your playing.
For myself, I heard Jason McGuire (sp?) play an Ethan Deutsch (frequents the forum) guitar on YT and I ended up buying one on Ebay with the thought that I could resell it if I didn't like it. That was about five years ago, and I have no plans of selling it, but yeah, that's an option--is to buy the best guitar you can from someone you admire (as you said) but the question is will it live up to expectations?
If money is not an issue you can always resell, if you don't mind potential loss on your investment. Good luck!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 22 2019 14:37:09

JasonM

Posts: 2054
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

I played a Yamaha for a little while in a dance class and then when I brought in my Sanchis everyone was like oh man that guitar sounds so much better.

Here is a video of Vicente playing what looks most certainly to be a Sanchis:
https://youtu.be/WLwBmxho1bw

It’s a very different sound than his Reyes, but there is a certain common timbre produced with the way he hits the strings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 22 2019 15:22:29

AndresK

Posts: 309
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
From: Patras, Greece

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

Hello friend. I own and play a Lazarides guitar and it is quite an amazing experience. For some reason this guitar makes it very difficult to take your hands off and stop playing. You just want to keep playing for hours, and your hands do not get tired, and you just love hearing every note of those amazingly singing trebles. Everyone that got their hands on it (on my guitar) say more or less the same. You can also contact him personally, he is so friendly and cool that you will be very happy to know him.

So it really has to do with what you are looking for as the other said but be sure to give Lazarides guitars a chance. They will amaze you for sure.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2019 17:26:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

I played a Yamaha for a little while in a dance class and then when I brought in my Sanchis everyone was like oh man that guitar sounds so much better.

Here is a video of Vicente playing what looks most certainly to be a Sanchis:

It’s a very different sound than his Reyes, but there is a certain common timbre produced with the way he hits the strings.

He is using some other guy’s guitar obviously, but he sounds more flamenco than ever 😂

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2019 17:41:27

Argaith

Posts: 481
Joined: May 6 2009
From: Iran (living in London)

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Here is a video of Vicente playing what looks most certainly to be a Sanchis

Despite the fact that I have not enough time to play two guitars, I couldn't convince myself to sell my Sanchis after I got my Anders.
I have not come across anyone who doesn't love their guitars.

A

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2019 14:14:58

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

quote:

He is using some other guy’s guitar obviously, but he sounds more flamenco than ever 😂

I agree

.
The only problem is that Vicente habitually uses a very low action while that guitar probably is just standard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2019 15:37:17

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to Echi)

quote:

I agree .
The only problem is that Vicente habitually uses a very low action while that guitar probably is just standard.

I noticed that. He lowered the action of his Reyes in the past several years and I feel like he sounded much better before with a higher action (on the same guitar)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2019 17:15:38

CA_Sevilla01

Posts: 34
Joined: Feb. 11 2017

RE: Buying my first "real"... (in reply to abu7maid)

Have you looked closely at the secondary market? get a used concert one, maybe a few years old but you will get a killer deal. check the classified section, Ebay or Reverb. Hopes this helps....definitely helped me : )

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 7 2019 7:32:56