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Antonio de Torres 200 years
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
In the Orfeo there's an interview with Romanillos, the leading expert on Torres' life and work, and interviews with Stefano Grondona, Wulfin Lieske, and Carles Trepat, all pros who play concerts on Torres instruments.
Trepat says that he thinks the guitars most like Torres' are the instruments of Manuel Ramirez, and the flamenco guitars of Santos Hernandez and Esteso.
Having played a few Santos and Estesos myself, but no Torres, I would add Marcelo Barbero to the list.
RNJ
I feel you probably are referring to flamenco guitars, not classical guitars and would tend to agree about barbero-santos connection, but TORRES did not make proper flamenco guitars. So I doubt you would find this same link to barbero if you could compare. For sure the general design and concepts are ALL Torres inspired, but I often wonder which luthier first made the conscious efforts to get the neck angle just right for a low bridge with no buzz as per flamenco guitars today.
Also curious about how the jose Ramirez I and II "tablao" guitar might have compared to the M. Ramirez-santos-esteso etc line of work. Never played or even seen the famous "tablao" guitar, as Jose Ramirez III describes, his father stubbornly clung to this design as pros gravitated to his Great uncles guitars instead.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jun. 14 2017 16:44:37
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I feel you probably are referring to flamenco guitars, not classical guitars and would tend to agree about barbero-santos connection, but TORRES did not make proper flamenco guitars.
I don't see my copy of Romanillos's book on Torres. It must still be in a box somewhere. Since I moved back to Austin I don't have shelf space for all the books. But the 2nd edition of Urlik's book has bridge dimensions for all the guitars in the collection.
It doesn't give the saddle height above the top, since many of the guitars are more than a century old, and they likely don't have the original saddles, but it does give the height of the bridge tie block. On all of my guitars the saddle extends at least slightly above the tie block, so we could take the height of the tie block as a lower bound on the height of the saddle.
The three Torres guitars in Urlik's collection have varying tie block heights. The lowest is 7.6mm. You could put on a saddle that brought the strings to 8.5mm above the top, and still have at least a millimeter of bone above the wood, probably more. Of the three Torres, this is the one Brune chose to play cañas on the CD that comes with the book.
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The only Barberos I have played have been spruce/cypress flamencas.
I suppose you have read Brune's paper contending that the main influence on guitar development in the 19th century would have been flamenco, since there were so many more flamenco players in Spain than "classical."
There's a 1934 spruce/Indian Barbero for sale at Guitar Salon in L.A. They have a video
http://tinyurl.com/y9pn6lcv
of it played by Tomasz Fechner. I don't know about the neck angle and bridge height, but I like the sound of it.
RNJ
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Date Jun. 14 2017 18:28:09
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Gildeavalle)
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quote:
There's a 1934 spruce/Indian Barbero for sale at Guitar Salon in L.A. They have a video
http://tinyurl.com/y9pn6lcv
of it played by Tomasz Fechner. I don't know about the neck angle and bridge height, but I like the sound of it.
RNJ
Wow, I think Tomasz Fechner my new favorite classical player. Not a bruto at all.
After much reading, researching and correspondence with Brune' and other authorities, I'm of the opinion that the narrative that supports a 'classical' guitar came first paradigm is largely false. The evidence for a development that holds the Torres era guitar makers outside such binary narrative is very strong. The schism narrative was planted in the mind of the public well into the 20th century. Long after Torres and his contemporaries had passed away. The evidence for a Sevilla based guitar industry that catered mainly to flamenco guitarists is very solid.
On the topic of the tablao guitar, that is part of another split between Manuel Ramirez and this brother. The 'tablao guitar' was an egg shaped thingy that was not like a flamenco guitar, it was more like this: https://www.guitarsalon.com/store/p4924-1897-jose-ramirez-i-spcy.html
The split between Jose I and Manuel was not just that swift move that Manuel pulled by saying he was moving to Paris, and then opening his own shop across town, they also quarreled over the Torres concept. As I understand it, Manuel was a solid Torresian, and Jose I was into other avenues of exploration. But Manuel's genius was that he recognized and dissected the Torres concept and developed within the scope of Torres work. Santos learned this too by intellectual capillary action. Santos Hernandez sponged up Manuel's study of Torres first hand and received the knowledge or what ever it was that Manuel learned.
There was not a lot of discernment market wise as to what was flamenco and what was classical in the days of Manuel moving out on his own. The the idea of a clear division between two fields had not developed yet in the mind of the public, if they even thought about it at all. That division will not become entrenched in the pubic consciousness until the Segovia press corps begins to write concert notices with the differentiation noted, and this occurs in the late 1920's and early 1930's; and is then expanded upon by those who identify with Segovia doctrine of separating 'classical' music from forms of popular music.
Torres and his fellow builders on the Calle' Cuna, Carpenteria, and Cerragerria did not know they were inventing classical guitars because they were mainly making guitars for the dual clientele of some senoritos and mostly flamencos, and some guys who played a mixed bag everything to get a gig. The invention of a label that branded the Segovia Doctrine followers from Flamencos came fifty years after the middle of Torres' Segunda Epocha, or about 1880.
I say Segovia Doctrine with a bit of humorous sarcasm- His ideas were truly taken as doctrinal by many and amounted to a kind of religious vision we still feel palpably today. It will eventually unravel and the narrative will be adjusted to allow the doctrinal aspects of Segovia to be seen objectively without out so much ego. He was truly a great musician, but the mythos around his ideas have taken on a life of their own.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jun. 15 2017 3:41:55
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Gildeavalle
Posts: 47
Joined: Oct. 26 2012
From: Granada
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RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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Yes, Romanillos is Torres' expert and the one who was able to get his guitars documented, no doubt about that and starting point for many researchers. As for the interest about historic guitar after Segovias' death, Cano had a great collection of historic guitars, included Torres, and Torres was mentioned as an exceptional guitar-maker in at least a book of the first quarter of the XIX century by a Granada cultural expert. Maybe Segovia internaionalized the taste for historic guitars. But if you know something about Festival de Cante Jondo, it was an important event that tried to give value to guitars, guitar-makers and guitar-players in Granada both in 1922 with Falla, Lorca, a young Segovia...and in its 50th anniversary in 1972 with not that young Segovia, Cano, Sabicas...
https://gildeavalle.wordpress.com/2017/07/06/andres-segovia-2017-on-the-30th-anniversary-of-his-death-95-and-50-anniversary-of-the-1st-conquest-of-flamenco-cante-jondo-granada-1922/
https://gildeavalle.wordpress.com/2017/07/25/andres-segovia-at-los-olivos-andres-segovia-santos-hernandez-old-gil-de-avalles-video-with-this-piece-of-history/
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Daniel Gil de Avalle Guitar Maker/Luthier:
Classical, Flamenco & Historic Guitars
http://www.gildeavalle.wordpress.com
https://www.facebook.com/guitarrasdegranada
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Date Aug. 29 2017 5:58:38
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to jshelton5040)
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quote:
You have two high end splendid quality guitars. Unless you want to become a collector I see no reason to even shop around.
I can't afford to become a collector, but I am curious, about both the sound and playability of different styles of guitar, and also the general history and development of flamenco guitars.
I haven't "finished" learning, and I am never satisfied with either my playing or my guitars. Of the two Conde's (both bought second hand), I feel the negra is overall the better instrument, but I like some of the more "flamenco" qualities of the blanca. Unfortunately I don't get to play a lot of different guitars, and wonder if something else might suit me better. I have a friend who has a Gerundino, and a Jose Lopez Bellido (both cipres), and there are things about those guitars that I really like too. Maybe I'm just greedy, or unrealistic in continuing to search for the "perfect" guitar, even though it probably doesn't exist.
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Date Sep. 2 2017 22:29:12
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