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Posts: 1696
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to jshelton5040)
John, you explained that very well and my experience has been very similar. I have built with only 650- and 656-mm scales and I have found the differences to be as you described. I find that 656 mm is best for my flamenco guitars and I use 650 for my classical guitars.
As usual i disagree with the importance of scale length.
Scale length is just another little factor in guitarbuilding, but it has to go together with the rest of the guitar. A 660 scale makes a slightly higher tension than a 650 scale and the guitars should be adjusted according to that. There are so many different factors that work together in producing sound, projection and pulsation. Scale length is just one of them. We all have our little preferences and some builders work better with one or another scale length while other builders work equally good with different scale length.
I have asked several pro players to try guitars of mine back in my Spain days and none of them could feel or hear the difference of pulsation or sound between 650 or 660mm scale. They could hear and feel the difference between the different guitars but it had little or nothing to do with scale length.
Anders A 660 scale makes a slightly higher tension than a 650 scale and the guitars should be adjusted according to that. [...] We all have our little preferences and some builders work better with one or another scale length while other builders work equally good with different scale length.
My preference is for 660 scale / medium-high top pulsacion and I found I always ended up preferring guitars with such settings.
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to Guest)
Luthiers measure. It is part of their attempt to make the guitar they dream of. All measurements are approximations.
Clients play. I have never measured the length of any part of any guitar I have considered buying at the time of checking it out. I have owned great guitars with scale lengths from 645 to 664.
Ah I think I have lied (or mis-spoken as politicians say). Placing my hands and fingers on a guitar and feeling comfortable is of course, measurement, but you know what I mean. Socrates understood such matters.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to sartorius)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sartorius
I bought José Romero a new 1A professional guitar a few months ago (February 2017) in his workshop in Madrid. Ten years I had been wanting one and it was the right time. I wanted a 650mm. He told me he only builds 660mm because it's (considered) best for flamenco. His conscious mind obviously spoke but when I told him this one was 650mm (which I assessed visually) he measured it and was incredibly surprised to see that indeed it was 650mm without even him knowing it.
Always refer to your unconscious mind for the correct reply. José Romero implicitly knows that 650mm is better for his guitars.
Hate to say this amigo, I know this can be a super sensitive topic for buyers....but it sounds more like you just busted the guy who found out the guitars he orders from Valencia made to his "specifications" to pass off as in house made 1A primeras....are actually NOT built to his specifications!!!
Oh serious Ricardo! No way! Never in a million kajilluion quatrillian years. Besides everyone knows you measure scale length by pressing the A string to the first fret.
sensitive topic for buyers....but it sounds more like you just busted the guy who found out the guitars he orders from Valencia made to his "specifications" to pass off as in house made 1A primeras....are actually NOT built to his specifications!!!
It's unlikely he ordered a guitar in Valencia or Barcelona. Romero is well known for a high standard hard to get outside Madrid. It's likely to be the usual story: You though to have bought a Bernabè and it was a Tezano-Perez, an Arcangel and it was a Manuel Caceres, a Hernandez y Aguado and it was a Lopez-Nieto a Conde "Felipe V" and it was someone else's in Madrid. The same you could say for Granada or Almeria...few room for myths in this field.
Didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but you have to agree on one thing: guitars are indeed weird animals, surprising the best players (Paco himself said once that when you think you have dominated the guitar, then you realize it dominates you) and the best builders in the same way. That's what's wonderful with guitars, you just can't expect what's coming next (building or playing), just like with women
As to Romero, I've known him for about ten years now, visited him many times in his shop unexpected, had him change the top of a 1A 1969 classical Ramirez (which sounds better now than back when it was originally played in concerts) and finally got the opportunity to meet him at a time when surprisingly he had three finished guitars tucked away in a special locked sort of cupboard at the back (I'd never seen it before) when usually he always showed the same 'hollow sounding' Blanca that never convinced me (finally he got to sell it and built new fresh instruments).
Also, it's not difficult to recognize a commissioned Valencia or locally made cheap guitar builders sell to Japanese tourists and the likes or even a 2A semi-professional made by the builder but with lesser quality materials (and refinishing) that sells for half the price of a professional instrument.
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to Echi)
The guys who made my guitar (bought second-hand) are two brothers from around Madrid. Given the quality of the guitar (and the fact that it was really a steal) I found it surprising that I hadn't seen their name around much. They replied that they made quite a few guitars, it's just that someone else's name had been slapped onto it. I later went by the shop of one of the luthier's they worked for. And, well, apparently that sticker with a famous name on it cost a lot of money... Meanwhile I couldn't tell the difference between a 660 and 650 if you hit me in the face with it. Though I guess if you're going to hit someone in the face a 660 would give you better reach?
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to Echi)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Echi
quote:
sensitive topic for buyers....but it sounds more like you just busted the guy who found out the guitars he orders from Valencia made to his "specifications" to pass off as in house made 1A primeras....are actually NOT built to his specifications!!!
It's unlikely he ordered a guitar in Valencia or Barcelona. Romero is well known for a high standard hard to get outside Madrid. It's likely to be the usual story: You though to have bought a Bernabè and it was a Tezano-Perez, an Arcangel and it was a Manuel Caceres, a Hernandez y Aguado and it was a Lopez-Nieto a Conde "Felipe V" and it was someone else's in Madrid. The same you could say for Granada or Almeria...few room for myths in this field.
By "high standard" do you mean like "build for me a guitar that is like between 648 and 664mm, anywhere in there will be just fine so I can tell my customers its 660 the best sound for flamenco!"....I mean that is a TALL order!
A 667mm Conde is a very hard instrument to play, everybody knows that. That's the reason why Paco de Lucía and Manolo Sanlúcar ordered two twin guitars back in 1971 that had a 638mm scale.
Paco's 1980 Conde was a 650mm (as can be seen elsewhere on the 'special guitars' section). Let's face it: scale length is more a matter of plain playing comfort than anything else. The reason Paco used a longer scale length for his stage guitar is only because, as he stated once, it was harder than those he used to play at home and needed that change on stage.
On a different note, I've had at least ten Carrillo guitars pass through my hands in almost ten years, some of them just for a couple of days, others for years and I can clearly remember the day a couple of Caviuna Negras arrived at home, one of which was outstandingly better than the other (it's still my work horse today) without still me knowing why (and Carrillo by the way) as the two guitars were made at the same time. It easily beats a few Condes. So admit that a builder (and of course a player) just can't tell the reasons it is so, just as we can't say why a puppy is so different from the rest of the dog family being born at the same time...
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to sartorius)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sartorius The reason Paco used a longer scale length for his stage guitar is only because, as he stated once, it was harder than those he used to play at home and needed that change on stage.
Sorry, but I don't understand this statement. Why would anyone choose a guitar more difficult to play for performances? Most professionals like to practice on a challenging instrument and perform on an easy one. Of course, PDL was obviously an extraordinary player who didn't necessarily fit the normal mold.
When I could still play I always had one guitar that I liked the best and that's the one I played all the time, at least until a better one came along. I never desired more than one guitar as long as it was the best I could build. I guess being a collector has never been my thing.
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to jshelton5040)
It's very common for musicians to prefer using harder instruments (and thicker strings) for live playing.
The excitement and power that comes out on a performance would make the "couch guitar" fart all over the place...unless you already prefer a stiff instrument for casual playing or practicing.
@John When you play in live situations, noise or venues with poor acoustic are the problem, as you want to be heard and projection can be the issue. I for one, istintively push more on the strings and therefore need a guitar top/strings with more resistance than when I'm at home. Paco said the same regarding his Conde. On stage he needed a stiffer guitar than those he like to play at home. IMHO Conde Felipe V evolved his guitars of the '80 towards a stiffer model exactly for this purpose. @ Sartorius. A high pulsacion doesn't entail a shorter scale, even though I found that often a guitar with 650 mm seems stiffer under the finger than a longer scale one.
quote:
By "high standard" do you mean like "build for me a guitar that is like between 648 and 664mm, anywhere in there will be just fine so I can tell my customers its 660 the best sound for flamenco!"....I mean that is a TALL order!
Out of the jokes, I can say that I had a Romero, a Manzanero, a Caceres and the building quality was really good, clearly superior to my Sanchis Carpio. Of course, the sound is a different matter.
Shelton played professionally for 35 or 40 years. Kinda cracks me up that someone is discoursing to him on guitar choice.
A lot of people who subscribe to the harder duro guitar on stage are not guitar eaters. Strong players go for any kind of guitar on stage they like working with. I've heard pros who work a lot say a hard guitar will mess them up and vice versa.
There is no rule on this, it's personal. Paco was Paco, he had his personal needs and likes. Not every one is Paco.
As you say, there is no rule on this. It's just a fact that Paco (as others) prefers a harder setting for live situations as I do, and I too played on stage for many years. John made a question and I just shared my answer.
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to Guest)
I am beginning to see where I went wrong. If I want to join the big boys I need a big stiff 660mm? This would be why professionals never bought from Reyes or Devoe I suppose.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to sartorius)
quote:
A 667mm Conde is a very hard instrument to play, everybody knows that.
Not necessarily. A stretch might take more effort at first Fret position but that's all the problem. The Action is the ONLY thing that matters on a guitar being easy or difficult to play. Skinny fingerboard can be awkward on the right hand too, but it can take getting used to then no problem. Action is the main thing. As mentioned, those long scale guitars are more comfortable in higher positions when using a capo as well.
Yes paco wanted a tougher guitar on stage than at home due to "nervous energy" he has. I have also felt this on stage, it is weird but it's true. But again these are psychological factors like cold fingers....I have learned to over come these things because they are fake issues. I can play with cold numb fingers just fine as normal now, and deal with low action guitars too.
But Luthiers building guitars and not knowing what scale length they are using is something else.
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to sartorius)
quote:
ORIGINAL: sartorius
I bought José Romero a new 1A professional guitar a few months ago (February 2017) in his workshop in Madrid. Ten years I had been wanting one and it was the right time. I wanted a 650mm. He told me he only builds 660mm because it's (considered) best for flamenco. His conscious mind obviously spoke but when I told him this one was 650mm (which I assessed visually) he measured it and was incredibly surprised to see that indeed it was 650mm without even him knowing it.
Always refer to your unconscious mind for the correct reply. José Romero implicitly knows that 650mm is better for his guitars.
Impressive bringing back a thread after 10 years!
*** If possible to choose, I'd always go for the scale which the maker likes the most be it 650mm, 655mm etc.
As a player it's very difficult to assess scale length and playability as there are so many other variables in contention be it neck thickness, nut width and so on.
With a capo on anyway the differences in scale seem to be a lot less important from my findings anyway.
Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to sartorius)
quote:
A 667mm Conde is a very hard instrument to play, everybody knows that.
We all know the REAL reason that all the best players SAY they use a 667, when actually they're using a 666. (It's obvious just by looking - they're deliberately telling us the wrong scale). They add that extra millimeter to fool us and disguise the fact they've sold their soul to the devil.
RE: whats the benefit of 660mm scale... (in reply to tijeretamiel)
quote:
If possible to choose, I'd always go for the scale which the maker likes the most be it 650mm, 655mm etc.
That would mean you give credit to someone else and don't respect your own physical demands. A builder has to adapt to the guitarist's criteria and provide an instrument that is as close a match to his own requirements as possible.
Have a look (and a go at listening) to the new Conde Moraito Reedición (again on that (in)famous guitar site). Although it's new, it has the true' Conde of the seventies' sound and features Moraito's original scale choice: 650mm.
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