Guitar Choice Dilemma

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elbabilonio

Posts: 27
Joined: Jul. 26 2011
From: Doha, Qatar

Guitar Choice Dilemma

Hola aficionados,

So I have a choice between two guitars that are similar in price: a Pedro Maldonado (Ronda model) and a Hermanos Sanchis (Solea model). Both are around the 1,500 euro mark though one is a blanca with machine head and the other is a negra with a peghead. I have chosen the Maldonado for a variety of reasons, but I really can't try, nor do I have a representative video of, either.

I wonder if you guys would make a similar choice given your experience with guitars from both luthiers; would you? I do prefer a peghead and would like to experience having a negra, but I'm going with what I think is the safer bet (it is a bet when you buy over the internet anyway).

I hope your collective wisdom could put my heart at ease!

Saludos,
El Babilonio

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2016 22:05:51

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

For me a negra with pegs is somehow "impolite".

. Anyway, I played many solea and other Sanchis models, to be safe, if it were me, I would go for that. Opinions will vary of course.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 11 2016 23:32:52

elbabilonio

Posts: 27
Joined: Jul. 26 2011
From: Doha, Qatar

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

Ricardo, is your preference solely based on knowing Sanchis guitars or are you also alluding to the practice of selling third-party guitars including those of Maldonado Jr.?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 12 2016 20:47:04

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

quote:

ORIGINAL: elbabilonio

Ricardo, is your preference solely based on knowing Sanchis guitars or are you also alluding to the practice of selling third-party guitars including those of Maldonado Jr.?

Let me put it this way...I have had many many Sanchis in my hands and ultimately own one. I have had very few Maldonados though I have been around them. I know great players that love Maldonado. Similar thing going on, for me, with Pedro de Miguel. I know guys that die for that guitar, and I have had many of them around, but few stayed in my hands for very long.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2016 2:20:53

elbabilonio

Posts: 27
Joined: Jul. 26 2011
From: Doha, Qatar

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Let me put it this way...I have had many many Sanchis in my hands and ultimately own one. I have had very few Maldonados though I have been around them. I know great players that love Maldonado. Similar thing going on, for me, with Pedro de Miguel. I know guys that die for that guitar, and I have had many of them around, but few stayed in my hands for very long.

I understand. I suppose it's a matter of preference and, given my inability to try either guitar, I can't tell which one I'd prefer!

I also don't prefer the sound of Pedro de Miguel guitars. I was disappointed to hear the one that Pepe Habichuela started to play in his later YouTube videos.

I will probably stick with my choice given a video sample that I've watched for a Maldonado Ronda. I realize that not all guitars are created equal, but that principle applies to any guitar. I am also guessing that a Maldonado would be easier to sell should it not suit my preference, but again, this is just a guess!

Thanks for your input, Ricardo!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2016 10:25:01

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

Maybe this can help you as a reference...

I had a Maldonado ten years ago and was a good guitar for the money.
Probably I'd go for the Sanchis either but keeping in mind that the Sanchis production is a little inconsistent in the F2 range.
Some F2 or Solea model have a very good top stiffness and generally a nice depth of sound but some of them are also quite poor sounding in the high positions of the fretboard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2016 11:38:06

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

quote:

I understand. I suppose it's a matter of preference and, given my inability to try either guitar, I can't tell which one I'd prefer!

If you have no idea which to choose, if you think you can tell the difference from recordings and if you don´t want to listen to Ricardo, then buy anything you like. The difference will be minimal, especially to your ears.

One day, when you have learned something, you can select a great guitar for yourself.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2016 15:52:41

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

Can you buy both, try them out, and then utilize the return policy for whichever one you don't prefer?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2016 20:00:16

elbabilonio

Posts: 27
Joined: Jul. 26 2011
From: Doha, Qatar

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to HemeolaMan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

Can you buy both, try them out, and then utilize the return policy for whichever one you don't prefer?

I didn't think about that! But what if I like both? The humanity! ;)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2016 21:14:33

elbabilonio

Posts: 27
Joined: Jul. 26 2011
From: Doha, Qatar

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

Maybe this can help you as a reference...

...

That's one of only two videos that I have found of the Ronda model! I liked this guitar when it was selling a few years ago by Zavaleta. However, what Morante alluded to makes sense, it's hard to tell the quality from a recording (in this case, one recording). I was hoping to hear from someone who had tried that model or, better yet, owns one!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2016 21:22:08

elbabilonio

Posts: 27
Joined: Jul. 26 2011
From: Doha, Qatar

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to Morante)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante
...

One day, when you have learned something, you can select a great guitar for yourself.

If you mean learn about the difference between how guitars sound/play, I'm afraid it's really hard to do so, unless I travel or buy and sell guitars often. However, the latter implies that I'm either rich or a professional guitarist. For professional players or ones who live near a decent flamenco guitar shop, I could imagine it would be easier. Ideally, I'd have a bunch of guitars that I can play regularly. Short of that, I had to ask those with more experience.

I appreciate all of your input and will let you know what happens!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 13 2016 21:31:34

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

I would definitely go for the Maldonado.

The HSL Soleá is higher price version of the F2 for which it was replaced to reduce the price distance of the better HSL flamencas. So if you could get a 2nd hand F2 then take this one instead of the Soleá. For that higher price the Soleá is less worth. I classify it to be a more simple F2.

A special point why I recommend the Maldonado. to me it sounds much clearer and lighter in the trebles, while the HSL trebles are very hard. So I don´t like this. I played lots of HSL and owned one that was especially built for me. The hard trebles is an aspect you´d really need to love to be lucky with such a guitar. I´ve also played Maldonados, surely not that many as HSL, but enough to tell that I like their sound much better.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2016 12:03:53

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to bernd)

Solea since 2015 is different than the older Solea model. Supposedly is closer to 1F (which was discontinued) in sound. Finish and detaills are also much better than 2F.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2016 12:08:21

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

I think Berndt is quite right re: the harder treble strings and bolder treble sound but this could be a good point for projection and picado instead of a drawback.
I put the same concept with different words when I said that the Sanchis guitars usually have a good top stiffness and depth of sound.

The actual solea models have an ebony fretboard while the old F2 don't.
In terms of sound they are actually very very similar imho (while not as good as the 1F extra).
I have a Sanchis Carpio F2 which looks less plastic than the actual solea.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2016 12:17:50

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

At this point I doubt we're all talking about the same guitars so..

..I am out

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2016 12:29:09

etta

Posts: 341
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

I have a Maldonado "Ronda" that I bought from Pedro Jr. several years ago. It sounded and played as well as many of the more expensive guitars I played. It may be the very best lower priced guitar that I have ever played.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2016 14:03:32

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to Echi)

quote:

Solea since 2015 is different than the older Solea model. Supposedly is closer to 1F (which was discontinued) in sound.

For sure it is not closer to the 1F.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 15 2016 22:30:42

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to bernd)

quote:

The HSL Soleá is higher price version of the F2 for which it was replaced to reduce the price distance of the better HSL flamencas. So if you could get a 2nd hand F2 then take this one instead of the Soleá. For that higher price the Soleá is less worth. I classify it to be a more simple F2.

According to Johannes from Mundo-flamenco.com; "The new model was introduced in 2015. It is constructionally identical to the model 1F"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2016 7:31:49

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

So..is it like 1F or a "more simple 2F"? lol

In fact, I don't care. It's a great guitar, that's what matters to me.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2016 8:14:28

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

There is a misunderstanding here.
There was a time when Sanchis Carpio had many entry level models: 3f, 2f, 1f and then 1fextra.
Later on the 3f was cancelled and the entry level was a "new 2f", and growing, 1f (an improved 2f) and then 1f extra.
Eventually the Sanchis Lopez decided to cut again the lower models range and to have just 2f, 1fextra and then the RSC Ricardo Sanchis "tribute" (also made by them now).
Actually Ricardo makes just the luthier model while few years ago also the RSC models.
My point is that the old 1Fextra had always something more and are professional grade guitars.
The old F2 can be good but not as good and anyway they are a little unpredictable.
The actual Solea guitars are (theoretically) between the old F2 and F1.
Just my 2 cents.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2016 9:31:47

Ricardo

Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to Echi)

Well, for what it's worth I never noticed any difference sound or playing between 1F or 2F, only in the aesthetic detailing. The Solea was differing looking bridge and they clearly used a different top tuning method to get that old nasal tone. The expensive RSC Luther guitar, that was pretty pricy too, did not impress me other than the looks.

Maldonado were ok but not what I prefer.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2016 19:36:23

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw
"The new model was introduced in 2015. It is constructionally identical to the model 1F"

I see I can read tea leaves. That means it is made of all-solid wood and provides a golpeador. Just like any guitar...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2016 23:43:20

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to Echi)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

There is a misunderstanding here.
There was a time when Sanchis Carpio had many entry level models: 3f, 2f, 1f and then 1fextra.
Later on the 3f was cancelled and the entry level was a "new 2f", and growing, 1f (an improved 2f) and then 1f extra.
Eventually the Sanchis Lopez decided to cut again the lower models range and to have just 2f, 1fextra and then the RSC Ricardo Sanchis "tribute" (also made by them now).
Actually Ricardo makes just the luthier model while few years ago also the RSC models.
My point is that the old 1Fextra had always something more and are professional grade guitars.
The old F2 can be good but not as good and anyway they are a little unpredictable.
The actual Solea guitars are (theoretically) between the old F2 and F1.
Just my 2 cents.

The older entry level models starting from 3F were available as remainder of stock in 2004. This was the time, when all their guitars still had the misplaced frets. In 2005 the all-over new cunstruction line startet and was exhibited at the Frankfurt Musikmesse.

Between 2F and 1F was the Bulerías model. Today´s Soleá is between the 2F and the 1F just in order to its price, but nothing else.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2016 0:02:20

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

Basically we can agree that the F1 extra was better

The difference between F2 and F1 before 2003 was the fretboard in ebony: F2 was similarly made and had solid woods but not ebony fretboard (I owned them, so I know).

Bulerias is and was built and priced exactly as the 1F extra negra.
The difference is that the wood used for the box is paoferro (named also caviuna or Bolivian rosewood).
IMHO the best guitar Ricardo used to make.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2016 6:45:39

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

Another funny thread

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2016 6:48:54

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

It's funny this kind of marketing maybe.
My best friend knows very well Ricardo and the Sanchis: they are in the same whatsapp chat

with other builders.
He told me that the last RCS (made by the Sandhis now ) are different from the guitars made by Ricardo before mainly as the top is thinner and braced differently.

Marketing is necessary to survive as the market for flamenco guitar is still small and these kind of companies make few money.
That's why they also make student guitars for other builders. In these days the Chinese production eats the lower end of the market.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2016 7:07:19

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

Some HSL guts:

Anyways, I don't understand how someone can not notice the difference in detaills and finish (woodgrain too) when comparing 2F and Solea.

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"Ya no me conoce el sol, porque yo duermo de dia"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 17 2016 8:40:24

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Guitar Choice Dilemma (in reply to elbabilonio)

Great videos, thanks.
First info is the top thickness. If you notice the top of the Solea let less light pass through.
Th second info is that the the F extra 2015 has an unusual bracing pattern: for instance they put a bent closing bar.
I had (just for a month really) an F Extra 2013 and in that case they just used a small transverse closing bar (as in the 2015 solea above).
I think the thicker top is the more influential aspect though.

I attach 2 pictures: the first one refers to a more recent RSC (still one of those made by Ricardo) while the second one is the top of my Bulerias and it is exactly the same of some old 1F extra made by Ricardo I could examine (still when he used a stiffest top).

Recently the Sanchis switched to a thinner top.

I don't even know myself why I'm speaking of the Sanchis. I'm not a great fan of their recent production.