Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering

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NenadK

Posts: 137
Joined: Jun. 6 2010

Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering

I'm going through Giuliani's arpeggio studies and I've come across one where I'm not sure how I should fingering.

The PIMA indicates what is actually written in the book. The red asterisk is the note that confuses me. The pattern is PIA, PIM. Now I'm not sure if I should just keep repeating this pattern in which case the last note should be M or if the pattern is really indicating that I should use IA when I jump over a string and IM when I'm playing adjacent strings in which case the last note should be A?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2016 3:06:06

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to NenadK)

the idea is that A always plays the note on the 1st string and M always plays the note on the 2nd string

so, the last note is played with M since it's on the 2nd string

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2016 3:18:08

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to NenadK)

Agreed. The exercise is designed to get you used to switching between PIA and PIM arpeggios.
All of the Giuliani studies are extremely useful for both Flamenco and classical players.
I remember Pepe Romero (or was it Jose) saying that they studied Sor and Giuliani every day
for an hour or so to warm up and get their finger combinations smooth.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2016 15:56:18

NenadK

Posts: 137
Joined: Jun. 6 2010

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to NenadK)

Thanks guys.

I should mention there's a mistake in my question. The version I have in the book, the second last note is a D as opposed to a G in the image I posted (which I found online). This D actually caused confusion because for the last triplet there is a temptation to shift to playing B with the thumb then D with the i and the final D note with the ring. This is probably just a typo in the version that I have since the pattern doesn't match the first bar and the version I posted in the image is the corrected one.

Sorry about the confusion..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2016 18:32:50

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to NenadK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NenadK

Thanks guys.

I should mention there's a mistake in my question. The version I have in the book, the second last note is a D as opposed to a G in the image I posted (which I found online). This D actually caused confusion because for the last triplet there is a temptation to shift to playing B with the thumb then D with the i and the final D note with the ring. This is probably just a typo in the version that I have since the pattern doesn't match the first bar and the version I posted in the image is the corrected one.

Sorry about the confusion..

If the G in the photo were an open D, then P-P-M...keeping fingers on their respective treble strings and pulgar on basses.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 17:11:32

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to NenadK)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

If the G in the photo were an open D, then P-P-M...keeping fingers on their respective treble strings and pulgar on basses.

I disagree. If the G in the photo were an open D then it should still be played P-I-M because that would imply the middle harmony is moving from G to D and the thumb should only be playing the bass line

it helps if you see this as three parts:

1. the simple melody moves between strings 1 and 2 (played with A and M)

2. the harmony on 3rd string (played with I)

3. the Alberti bass line on strings 4, 5 and 6 (played with P)

once you know/understand what's what it will dictate how you play it. This is especially important when playing contrapuntal music (like Bach), but the arpeggio studies illustrate this in a simple way

IOW, using good right hand technique helps clarify the musical intent

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 18:37:14

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to DavRom)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavRom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

If the G in the photo were an open D, then P-P-M...keeping fingers on their respective treble strings and pulgar on basses.

I disagree. If the G in the photo were an open D then it should still be played P-I-M because that would imply the middle harmony is moving from G to D and the thumb should only be playing the bass line

it helps if you see this as three parts:

1. the simple melody moves between strings 1 and 2 (played with A and M)

2. the harmony on 3rd string (played with I)

3. the Alberti bass line on strings 4, 5 and 6 (played with P)

once you know/understand what's what it will dictate how you play it. This is especially important when playing contrapuntal music (like Bach), but the arpeggio studies illustrate this in a simple way

IOW, using good right hand technique helps clarify the musical intent

To be honest, I am sure it's a misprint , that the pictured example is INFACT the correct version, as this more a RIGHT hand exercise. Shifting ima string group orientation has much better examples/exercises. The music here is NOT contrapuntal, so I don't really see it as a "middle" voice harmony going on. It's just an exercise, so I gave what would be the more FLAMENCO way to use the right hand. Of course your suggestion works fine as well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 19:11:46

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to NenadK)

yeah, the posted image is indeed the correct version

even though it is not contrapuntal, voice leading is still important (as in all styles). it's quite clear there are 3 parts here and playing a particular voice with a finger then momentarily going to the thumb will cloud the voice leading

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 19:28:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to DavRom)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavRom

yeah, the posted image is indeed the correct version

even though it is not contrapuntal, voice leading is still important (as in all styles). it's quite clear there are 3 parts here and playing a particular voice with a finger then momentarily going to the thumb will cloud the voice leading

Leading to what? It's the last beat of the excerpt.

no need to answer that I know what you mean. If we just agree that the original post refers to a misprint, problem solved really.

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 19:49:34

Kevin

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to DavRom)

quote:

even though it is not contrapuntal

You were right the first time. It is contrapuntal. Either way, the flamenco teachers I have had might play it Giuliani's way (which does alternate P-I-A with P-I-M) but they would also experiment with it (e.g. p-p-i all the way throughout, good for pulgar string skips).

when borrowing classical stuff it is a good idea to think like a classical player in order to appropriate their techniques. It is also a good idea to think like a flamenco and develop your own way. But I am not a great player, just someone who had access to great players and recorded lessons that have a lot of wisdom on them. Take what I say with a grain of salt.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 20:54:55

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to NenadK)

I didn't understand why it isn't contrapuntal either.

The middle is just "sitting there" but the top and bottom voices are moving independently so.. why not?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 21:05:55

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to NenadK)

it's just a simple arpeggio using an Alberti bass, a device of the classical era

there are no full-blown melodies so, strictly speaking it isn't counterpoint although the voice leading is important (but, that can be said of any chord sequence and any style, as i said above)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 21:40:20

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to DavRom)

Ok.

I thought that "point against point" in an independent fashion was enough for it to be counterpoint, regardless of melodic interest.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 21:43:52

Kevin

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

I thought that "point against point" in an independent fashion was enough for it to be counterpoint, regardless of melodic interest.

I agree with that. There is 16th and 18th century counterpoint as primary methods of composition. Then, there is counterpoint as later borrowed by the "classical" composers. At what point one wants to just say it is voice leading and not counterpoint is up for debate. There is not a clear line.

I was thinking of Bach's prelude in C which implies voices and is certainly contrapuntal. it's figuration is not much more complicated than Giuliani's (although the harmonies are).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 22:03:30

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to NenadK)

now that you remind us of that little prelude i have to agree the Giuliani arp studies are counterpoint. Villa-Lobos etude #1 is another example

i'm glad we could do this and also come to an agreement. it was fun

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 22:14:56

Kevin

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to DavRom)

quote:

i'm glad we could do this and also come to an agreement. it was fun

now can we do this for solxbul and bulxsol.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 22:32:36

jg7238

Posts: 2869
Joined: May 11 2009

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to NenadK)

Quite frankly the Giuliani studies for the RH are fantastic if you want a super solid right hand. I highly recommend it although the same two chords can get boring. i know this doesn't answer the original question but wanted to add my opinion. Ok thanks guys.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 23:36:21

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to Kevin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin

now can we do this for solxbul and bulxsol.

ha! sorry i won't be of any help there. i've only learned to play some straight forward traditional soleá falsetas (much as i love the modern stuff) and some tangos more recently

bulerías are somewhere in the future for me

but i'll be watching and reading

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2016 23:52:46

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Giuliani's arpeggio study fingering (in reply to Kevin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin

quote:

even though it is not contrapuntal

You were right the first time. It is contrapuntal. Either way, the flamenco teachers I have had might play it Giuliani's way (which does alternate P-I-A with P-I-M) but they would also experiment with it (e.g. p-p-i all the way throughout, good for pulgar string skips).

when borrowing classical stuff it is a good idea to think like a classical player in order to appropriate their techniques. It is also a good idea to think like a flamenco and develop your own way. But I am not a great player, just someone who had access to great players and recorded lessons that have a lot of wisdom on them. Take what I say with a grain of salt.