Question about Palos and their uses

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ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

Question about Palos and their uses

Ok, so simply, do all flamenco songs follow a palo? Is it not flamenco if you don't follow a palo? For example, Vicente Amigo's Roma, or PDL's Entre dos aguas.

Second question, if the above is correct, does it follow it during the entire song? Let's say i'm writing an Alegrias, throughout second 1 to second 240, it's going to have to follow the 12 beat?

Thanks, much appreciated

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2014 6:08:55

withinity

Posts: 180
Joined: Sep. 17 2013

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Palo's are the songs man!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2014 12:53:55

maduroflamenco

Posts: 16
Joined: May 23 2012

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Palos represent the traditional rhythms, chord progressions, lyrical themes and melodies recognized under the general "flamenco" style of music. Check:

https://www.google.com/search?q=palos+del+flamenco&client=firefox-a&hs=dnn&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=iW8EVKalEtGzggTVkoK4Dw&ved=0CDgQsAQ&biw=1184&bih=605

These diagrams give you a general organization of the palos. Overlaps of these are common. Palos are often mixed. For example, the ternary palos are often closed por bulerías, or the binary ones are closed por tangos. Like any artistic endeavor, you're welcome to mix and match... as long as you stay "en compás", you'll be fine.

Check also:

http://www.flamenco-world.com/magazine/about/palos/paginas/indice.htm

for samples.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2014 13:14:12

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Flamenco is cante, and it's easier to classify (most)cante then a guitar solo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2014 14:24:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

Ok, so simply, do all flamenco songs follow a palo? Is it not flamenco if you don't follow a palo? For example, Vicente Amigo's Roma, or PDL's Entre dos aguas.

Second question, if the above is correct, does it follow it during the entire song? Let's say i'm writing an Alegrias, throughout second 1 to second 240, it's going to have to follow the 12 beat?

Thanks, much appreciated

Simply put "yes"...but Roma is NOT a form, but Entre dos Aguas IS a "rumba". Typically compas or other form elements maintain throughout, but for example "12 beats" is not a "rule". Half compas phrases of 6, and other anomalies may occur (in Alegria for example) in a single performance and it doesn't change the integrity of the song form.

A form can have it's melodic and harmonic structure, and/or rhythmic structure. In some cases things can get mixed up on purpose. For example, the song form called "fandango" can get the "por solea" or "por buleria" treatment...that is, the song form is fandango but it is set to the RHYTHM of solea, or buleria etc. With cante it is more obvious, but to point an instrumental example we notice the ending of "Compadres" duet of Paco de lucia and Manolo Sanlucar is in fact a fandangos, although the piece as a whole was set to buleria compas. Normally when this mixing of palos occurs, no special label is used it is just up to aficionados to understand or not what is happening.

Issues of taste come into play as well. For example, you can have the "fandango por solea" mixed form, but you would not do the opposite thing and dumb down the song of "solea de alcala" by setting it to the rhythm of fandango or rumba etc. Well, you could in theory but the issue of taste would just say it is all wrong.

Hope that helps amigo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2014 15:12:20

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Thanks a bunch Ricardo and others for clearing it up, much less confused now, but still confused to what Roma is , or can it not be classed as flamenco? Sorry if i'm using too broad of words,

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2014 19:20:06

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

still confused to what Roma is

It would fall under "cancion" I guess...

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2014 19:37:13

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

I'm not even sure it's "concion", as far as I know even conciones(the genre not literal translation) has some rules and comes from somewhere.
It IS entirely possible for a flamenco guitarist to write a song that is not at all flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2014 20:34:08

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

I'm not even sure it's "concion", as far as I know even conciones(the genre not literal translation) has some rules and comes from somewhere.
It IS entirely possible for a flamenco guitarist to write a song that is not at all flamenco.

I was saying cAncion, not cOncion (which doesn't exist).

When people say cancion, in my mind that just means it is a composition that is by a flamenco guitarist but just does not fall under any palo, hence they just call it "cancion" meaning it's just a song.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 1 2014 21:22:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

Thanks a bunch Ricardo and others for clearing it up, much less confused now, but still confused to what Roma is , or can it not be classed as flamenco? Sorry if i'm using too broad of words,

Correct that it is NOT flamenco at all. But if you want specific line of reasoning behind the composition, Mclaughlin had "meeting of the spirits" a modal vamping arpeggio pattern in 3/4 meter that makes use of a pattern of 5+7 subdivision across two bars. He taught this to Paco in the late 70's and Paco incorporate this pattern into his playing quite a bit, flamenco or not. Zyryab is a direct reworking of Mclaughlin's idea, but also "Cancion de Amor" and this is only paco's stuff. The number of flamenco players influenced by Paco's playing and ideas is countless but Vicente is a faithful follower. For that Roma tune he took the same pattern (he himself used it in other pieces on past albums) and just cycled through the typical progression in 4ths that you can find in almost any kind of guitar music on the planet. But if you want a specific example (again from Paco's influence) look no further than "spain" by chick corea.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2014 0:28:44

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

quote:

I was saying cAncion, not cOncion (which doesn't exist).

Si si si, eso!

I blame the Los Angeles Unified School District! Lol
But yeah, I was told that "cancion" comes with its own predetermined themes/letras/melodies and was not just "a song" as the direct translation would imply. I could be wrong but it was a reasonably reliable source.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2014 2:42:31

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

But yeah, I was told that "cancion" comes with its own predetermined themes/letras/melodies and was not just "a song" as the direct translation would imply. I could be wrong but it was a reasonably reliable source.....

Well, I surely am not a very reliable source. I trust you...

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2014 3:14:39

ZaidRockso

Posts: 64
Joined: Dec. 20 2013

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

Everything is all cleared up now, Thanks a bunch!! Love this place, always get detailed answers to my doubts , thanks guys!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2014 7:45:09

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

But yeah, I was told that "cancion" comes with its own predetermined themes/letras/melodies and was not just "a song" as the direct translation would imply. I could be wrong but it was a reasonably reliable source.....

Well, I surely am not a very reliable source. I trust you...

Personally I would use "cancion" to refer to something with actual singing, and if it was just guitar or instrumental "composicion". I have seen things like "composicion por buleria" or "vals buleria" or "variaciones por...", when the instrumental music is based on the rhythm or fits in the rhythm but has few or no traditional markers of the normal palo. Fandango or abandolao compas in 3/4 also serves this purpose for some guitar compositions that are clearly not the true "palo".

The exceptions to this, of course, things like Paco's new album and stuff in the past where the actual vocal melodies are interpreted by the guitar, sure that is "cancion".

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 2 2014 13:12:50

Gildeavalle

Posts: 47
Joined: Oct. 26 2012
From: Granada

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

check this blog by some flamenco guitar students from Cadix.

http://www.flamencoeduca.com/eng_palos_guitarra_2.html

Árbol del cante flamenco de Manfredi Cano, D.”Cante y baile flamencos, Everest, León, 1983: pág. 87.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 26 2015 10:14:38

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

if flamenco is not an art then i don't what is

great posts fellas!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2015 0:27:21

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The number of flamenco players influenced by Paco's playing and ideas is countless...

so these ideas become part of the flamenco lexicon, no?

this is where i have a problem with puristas. when, in any genre, certain composition modes/forms/whatever become widely accepted then they are indeed "pure"

how else does an art form develop?

i wonder what the argument was back in 1915

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2015 0:41:07

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to ZaidRockso)

It's not that there's purists and non-purists. It's a sliding scale, no black and white, shades of grey.
What is tolerable to some is not to others. As well I'm sure that the bar of tolerance moves around as we travel through time. I know there's an interview of Agujetas where he says Cameron is just a bunch of yelling. Many people you would call purists love Cameron and possibly even Agujetas opinion may have changed after 30 years.
Certainly, Mairena, Pavon, and Caracol is a base to start with.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2015 1:40:29

DavRom

Posts: 310
Joined: Jul. 16 2015
From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to Leñador)

right. my point is over against the purist ideology

the fact is the goal posts are constantly moving. otherwise it's dead

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2015 1:53:39

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Question about Palos and their uses (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

Many people you would call purists love Cameron

for some Camaron in the 70's was great and Camaron in the 80's was "basura"

a bit like when people make trite comments about PDL saying his music is this or that, and I want to ask them which decade they are talking about.... late sixties Paco was very different to mid-seventies was very different to eighties, nineties and beyond.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 27 2015 9:25:08