Question about Palos and their uses (Full Version)

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ZaidRockso -> Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 1 2014 6:08:55)

Ok, so simply, do all flamenco songs follow a palo? Is it not flamenco if you don't follow a palo? For example, Vicente Amigo's Roma, or PDL's Entre dos aguas.

Second question, if the above is correct, does it follow it during the entire song? Let's say i'm writing an Alegrias, throughout second 1 to second 240, it's going to have to follow the 12 beat?

Thanks, much appreciated



withinity -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 1 2014 12:53:55)

Palo's are the songs man!



maduroflamenco -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 1 2014 13:14:12)

Palos represent the traditional rhythms, chord progressions, lyrical themes and melodies recognized under the general "flamenco" style of music. Check:

https://www.google.com/search?q=palos+del+flamenco&client=firefox-a&hs=dnn&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=iW8EVKalEtGzggTVkoK4Dw&ved=0CDgQsAQ&biw=1184&bih=605

These diagrams give you a general organization of the palos. Overlaps of these are common. Palos are often mixed. For example, the ternary palos are often closed por bulerías, or the binary ones are closed por tangos. Like any artistic endeavor, you're welcome to mix and match... as long as you stay "en compás", you'll be fine.

Check also:

http://www.flamenco-world.com/magazine/about/palos/paginas/indice.htm

for samples.



Leñador -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 1 2014 14:24:18)

Flamenco is cante, and it's easier to classify (most)cante then a guitar solo.



Ricardo -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 1 2014 15:12:20)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

Ok, so simply, do all flamenco songs follow a palo? Is it not flamenco if you don't follow a palo? For example, Vicente Amigo's Roma, or PDL's Entre dos aguas.

Second question, if the above is correct, does it follow it during the entire song? Let's say i'm writing an Alegrias, throughout second 1 to second 240, it's going to have to follow the 12 beat?

Thanks, much appreciated


Simply put "yes"...but Roma is NOT a form, but Entre dos Aguas IS a "rumba". Typically compas or other form elements maintain throughout, but for example "12 beats" is not a "rule". Half compas phrases of 6, and other anomalies may occur (in Alegria for example) in a single performance and it doesn't change the integrity of the song form.

A form can have it's melodic and harmonic structure, and/or rhythmic structure. In some cases things can get mixed up on purpose. For example, the song form called "fandango" can get the "por solea" or "por buleria" treatment...that is, the song form is fandango but it is set to the RHYTHM of solea, or buleria etc. With cante it is more obvious, but to point an instrumental example we notice the ending of "Compadres" duet of Paco de lucia and Manolo Sanlucar is in fact a fandangos, although the piece as a whole was set to buleria compas. Normally when this mixing of palos occurs, no special label is used it is just up to aficionados to understand or not what is happening.

Issues of taste come into play as well. For example, you can have the "fandango por solea" mixed form, but you would not do the opposite thing and dumb down the song of "solea de alcala" by setting it to the rhythm of fandango or rumba etc. Well, you could in theory but the issue of taste would just say it is all wrong.

Hope that helps amigo.



ZaidRockso -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 1 2014 19:20:06)

Thanks a bunch Ricardo and others for clearing it up, much less confused now, but still confused to what Roma is , or can it not be classed as flamenco? Sorry if i'm using too broad of words,



rombsix -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 1 2014 19:37:13)

quote:

still confused to what Roma is


It would fall under "cancion" I guess... [:D]



Leñador -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 1 2014 20:34:08)

I'm not even sure it's "concion", as far as I know even conciones(the genre not literal translation) has some rules and comes from somewhere.
It IS entirely possible for a flamenco guitarist to write a song that is not at all flamenco.



rombsix -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 1 2014 21:22:06)

quote:

I'm not even sure it's "concion", as far as I know even conciones(the genre not literal translation) has some rules and comes from somewhere.
It IS entirely possible for a flamenco guitarist to write a song that is not at all flamenco.


I was saying cAncion, not cOncion (which doesn't exist). [8D] When people say cancion, in my mind that just means it is a composition that is by a flamenco guitarist but just does not fall under any palo, hence they just call it "cancion" meaning it's just a song. [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 2 2014 0:28:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZaidRockso

Thanks a bunch Ricardo and others for clearing it up, much less confused now, but still confused to what Roma is , or can it not be classed as flamenco? Sorry if i'm using too broad of words,


Correct that it is NOT flamenco at all. But if you want specific line of reasoning behind the composition, Mclaughlin had "meeting of the spirits" a modal vamping arpeggio pattern in 3/4 meter that makes use of a pattern of 5+7 subdivision across two bars. He taught this to Paco in the late 70's and Paco incorporate this pattern into his playing quite a bit, flamenco or not. Zyryab is a direct reworking of Mclaughlin's idea, but also "Cancion de Amor" and this is only paco's stuff. The number of flamenco players influenced by Paco's playing and ideas is countless but Vicente is a faithful follower. For that Roma tune he took the same pattern (he himself used it in other pieces on past albums) and just cycled through the typical progression in 4ths that you can find in almost any kind of guitar music on the planet. But if you want a specific example (again from Paco's influence) look no further than "spain" by chick corea.

Ricardo



Leñador -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 2 2014 2:42:31)

quote:

I was saying cAncion, not cOncion (which doesn't exist).

Si si si, eso![:)] I blame the Los Angeles Unified School District! Lol
But yeah, I was told that "cancion" comes with its own predetermined themes/letras/melodies and was not just "a song" as the direct translation would imply. I could be wrong but it was a reasonably reliable source.....



rombsix -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 2 2014 3:14:39)

quote:

But yeah, I was told that "cancion" comes with its own predetermined themes/letras/melodies and was not just "a song" as the direct translation would imply. I could be wrong but it was a reasonably reliable source.....


Well, I surely am not a very reliable source. I trust you... [:D]



ZaidRockso -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 2 2014 7:45:09)

Everything is all cleared up now, Thanks a bunch!! Love this place, always get detailed answers to my doubts , thanks guys!



Ricardo -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Sep. 2 2014 13:12:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

But yeah, I was told that "cancion" comes with its own predetermined themes/letras/melodies and was not just "a song" as the direct translation would imply. I could be wrong but it was a reasonably reliable source.....


Well, I surely am not a very reliable source. I trust you... [:D]


Personally I would use "cancion" to refer to something with actual singing, and if it was just guitar or instrumental "composicion". I have seen things like "composicion por buleria" or "vals buleria" or "variaciones por...", when the instrumental music is based on the rhythm or fits in the rhythm but has few or no traditional markers of the normal palo. Fandango or abandolao compas in 3/4 also serves this purpose for some guitar compositions that are clearly not the true "palo".

The exceptions to this, of course, things like Paco's new album and stuff in the past where the actual vocal melodies are interpreted by the guitar, sure that is "cancion".



Gildeavalle -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Oct. 26 2015 10:14:38)

check this blog by some flamenco guitar students from Cadix.

http://www.flamencoeduca.com/eng_palos_guitarra_2.html



Árbol del cante flamenco de Manfredi Cano, D.”Cante y baile flamencos, Everest, León, 1983: pág. 87.





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



DavRom -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Oct. 27 2015 0:27:21)

if flamenco is not an art then i don't what is

great posts fellas!



DavRom -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Oct. 27 2015 0:41:07)

quote:

The number of flamenco players influenced by Paco's playing and ideas is countless...


so these ideas become part of the flamenco lexicon, no?

this is where i have a problem with puristas. when, in any genre, certain composition modes/forms/whatever become widely accepted then they are indeed "pure"

how else does an art form develop?

i wonder what the argument was back in 1915



Leñador -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Oct. 27 2015 1:40:29)

It's not that there's purists and non-purists. It's a sliding scale, no black and white, shades of grey.
What is tolerable to some is not to others. As well I'm sure that the bar of tolerance moves around as we travel through time. I know there's an interview of Agujetas where he says Cameron is just a bunch of yelling. Many people you would call purists love Cameron and possibly even Agujetas opinion may have changed after 30 years.
Certainly, Mairena, Pavon, and Caracol is a base to start with.



DavRom -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Oct. 27 2015 1:53:39)

right. my point is over against the purist ideology

the fact is the goal posts are constantly moving. otherwise it's dead



mark indigo -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Oct. 27 2015 9:25:08)

quote:

Many people you would call purists love Cameron
for some Camaron in the 70's was great and Camaron in the 80's was "basura"

a bit like when people make trite comments about PDL saying his music is this or that, and I want to ask them which decade they are talking about.... late sixties Paco was very different to mid-seventies was very different to eighties, nineties and beyond.....



mark indigo -> RE: Question about Palos and their uses (Oct. 27 2015 9:27:29)

quote:

my point is over against the purist ideology
better not to get too hung up on "ideology" either way, better spend the time and energy listening and learning.



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