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RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to estebanana)
Interesting discussion. Have you read this book "Gypsies and flamenco"? It is the most scholarly book I could find on the history of flamenco.
Just started reading it but the author claims flamenco has got the interesting mix of influences because Romani gypsies travelled from India eventually ending up in Spain where they were forced to settle; on the way to Spain over de centuries they mixed their music (India) with music from countries they travelled through, in the case of Flamenco, Indian, Arabic and Western influences. So according to this author flamenco is 'owned' (influenced) by many cultures although the gypsies played a vital role by mixing them through their travels.
Another interesting point that this author made, and I think Ricardo touched upon- for all the different kinds of gypsy music, although the music can be very different you still hear it is gypsy (hard to define what that exactly is, something to do with passion and freedom in my opinion). For instance, although flamenco and Balkan music are very different in structure, you can hear both styles have been influenced by gypsies.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
I'm saying that what is essentially "gitano" in today's world is the combination of the moorish, jewish, and romani peoples.
I read somewhere that when the moors were expelled after the reconquest the numbers of gitanos mysteriously suddenly increased, and it was thought that many moors avoided expulsion by adopting the cultural identity of gypsies.
That's exactly what I'm saying. So there's no separating the moorish and jewish influence from the gitano. They are very likely one and the same.
RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to Jurriaan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jurriaan
Interesting discussion. Have you read this book "Gypsies and flamenco"? It is the most scholarly book I could find on the history of flamenco.
Just started reading it but the author claims flamenco has got the interesting mix of influences because Romani gypsies travelled from India eventually ending up in Spain where they were forced to settle; on the way to Spain over de centuries they mixed their music (India) with music from countries they travelled through, in the case of Flamenco, Indian, Arabic and Western influences. So according to this author flamenco is 'owned' (influenced) by many cultures although the gypsies played a vital role by mixing them through their travels.
Another interesting point that this author made, and I think Ricardo touched upon- for all the different kinds of gypsy music, although the music can be very different you still hear it is gypsy (hard to define what that exactly is, something to do with passion and freedom in my opinion). For instance, although flamenco and Balkan music are very different in structure, you can hear both styles have been influenced by gypsies.
It's an interesting idea, and it makes sense. And maybe this is part of the reason why the Romani population let the moors and jews into their crowds during the dark periods - familiarity perhaps?
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RE: A fun "discussion" abo... (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
edit: and I'm pretty sure what we know as "flamenco" today didn't really exist when the Moors ruled. It's really a post 1750 at the earliest sort of thing (and mostly an 1800s and later format).
Of course flamenco did not exist then, but the Moorish music (Arabic in origin) would have had its influence down through the centuries, from Al-andalus to 18th and 19th century Spain. That is what had a large influence on what we know as "flamenco" today, along with the Sephardim and other Andalucian inhabitants, including the Gitanos.
Bill
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