Repairing scratches/dings

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siliconsoniquete

Posts: 38
Joined: Apr. 14 2015

Repairing scratches/dings

I've come across a Lester Devoe negra for sale, I'm interested but the guitar is pretty beat up. There's no structural damage (cracks etc) but the surface has a lot of dings and scratches and the finish is worn down in a few places.

Is it possible to refinish it without affecting the sound? Or am I out of luck?

There's also some wear under the tap guard, anything that can be done about that?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 11 2015 21:09:43

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

Why do you guys always want to refinish guitars!!!!!!!

Just play it that way! It has beauty, history and experience and it ruins this to refinish them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2015 1:11:19

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Why do you guys always want to refinish guitars!!!!!!! Just play it that way! It has beauty, history and experience and it ruins this to refinish them.

A Prime example is Willie Nelson's guitar "Trigger." Talk about character!

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2015 1:34:12

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

De Voe probably glued that tap plate on with white glue and the milky look under the tap plate is the plate coming up and delaminating from the top.

If this came to me, I would remove the tap plate and replace it with white glue as an adhesive exactly like De Voe does. Then perhaps very light touch up of the scratches one by one on the top, or a light and thin super blonde French polish over the lacquer finish to bring the scratches down from being white.

Refinishing this guitar would be a big mistake in my opinion. It has golden wood age from UV exposure that takes dozens of years to happen naturally, craquelure in the lacquer, history, aire. Refinishing would render it dead. I wish people would stop refinishing guitars by important makers, it erases the history of this music.

There is nothing wrong with the finish on that guitar. Refinishing is to be done when the life of the guitar is in jeopardy due to a finish problem or structural repair that needs to be fixed.

Refinishing an old guitar because the player wants a 'new looking' guitar is a bad idea. If you want a new looking guitar, simply buy a brand new pristine guitar and leave the old ones looking their proper age. It does not make sense to intentionally collect old guitars and then instantly ruin them by refinishing them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2015 2:10:59

siliconsoniquete

Posts: 38
Joined: Apr. 14 2015

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

estebanana, thanks for the advice. I will truly take that to heart.

More out of curiosity, can you explain what you mean by "refinishing would render it dead"? Do you mean the "soul and history" or does refinishing actually destroy the sound?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2015 2:53:41

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

It makes some differences depending if the top is spruce or cedar and how deep are the scratches IMHO.
I learned by myself how bad can be refinishing a cedar top of a flamenco guitar and I hope never to do it again.
If the top instead is spruce and the finish is schellac you have more room for a refinishing.
To clean it up completely would entails either removing wood from an already thin top or add a too thick varnish.
The safest way to keep is to fill properly the scratches and to revive the existing finishing as Estebana suggested.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2015 7:53:39

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

quote:

More out of curiosity, can you explain what you mean by "refinishing would render it dead"? Do you mean the "soul and history" or does refinishing actually destroy the sound?

Ambos, both to different degrees. Milage varies, but the idea that an old guitar needs to look new is a bad idea. Plus the danger of over thinning the top, which usually makes the guitar sound 'tinny' and ruins it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2015 13:41:38

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2015 15:45:53

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

When we build violins we have to do tricks to make them look old and used. When we build guitars we have to make them look like they are covered with ultra shine plastic and never touched by anyone or anything.

Violinists dont think much about scratches, dings and cracks. Guitarists go all berserk if a guitar has a crack along the fingerboard and few dings and a sweat mark on the sides..

Its a confusing world.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 12 2015 19:55:10

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to Guest)

quote:

Having a DeVoe and such ridiculously poor maintenance...seriously. I'd be worried that the previous owner has mistreated the instrument in more ways than you know. How do you know if it was properly humidified at all times, when this guy obviously did't care even to put it in its case often enough? And the tapping damage *under* the golpeador just leaves me speechless. Achieving this is a feat in itself! In my opinion you should either ask for a STEEP discount or not buy, unless you are specifically in the business of collecting old guitars. Why not just get a new DeVoe. If this guitar is going to be an eyesore for you every time you pick it up, all that will happen is that you'll have paid a lot of money in order to get annoyed by the looks of it daily. Don't do this to yourself. Better pay more and be happy

This just looks like guitar that been gigged with. It looks like a guitar that the player simply used normally to play out.

The damage under the tap plate is difficult to see, but the whiteness leads me to think that is is typical white glue delaminating from the finish. The white glue crystalizes and becomes opaque after a few years of normal playing. The water based glue make is possible to change the tap plate without risking pulling up finish.

Builders see this all the time, you can't really judge the situation totally unless you see the guitar in person. The guitar probably just needs a new tap plate and a tiny bit of care to shine of the abrasions.

If it were me selling the guitar I'd put a new tap plate on it first. Easier to sell that way.

If I were to buy the guitar, ( if I was not a guitar builder) I would ask the seller to have a good repair person change the tap plate or I would ask to show it to a repairer to get an opinion on the state of the tap plate and a cost for replacement.

Otherwise that guitar looks fine to me.
So how does it sound ?

BTW- The bare spots in the finish. A repairer can body them up with French Polish and shine them up. If you are in the US and yo buy this guitar I can recommend a couple top AAA grade French polishers depending on your area.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 13 2015 2:15:16

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

I think the major question is:

Does the poster of this thread want a mint looking DeVoe?

If thats the case, then walk away from this one.
If he wants a good guitar, then this one could be very interesting if it plays well. As everyone has said, it can be brought up to a better looking state (but not mint) And in my personal opinion, a well reapaired instrument can be very attractive.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 13 2015 8:43:47

pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

They say that some scratches or dents over they years shows mucho character, here is Willie's characterized sweetheart.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2016 22:03:32

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

I've heard of pets looking like their owners but guitars?? That's a first!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2016 22:18:29

Piwin

Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

but guitars?? That's a first!

Nah man. It's pretty common. My guitar is getting heavier and balder with each passing year...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 7 2016 22:30:02

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

Hah, being ginger I guess I should get a Conde.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 8 2016 0:50:02

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

quote:

Is it possible to refinish it without affecting the sound?

Any time you touch the top of a professional style master guitar you run the risk of altering its tonal qualities. The top has settled in with age to accommodate what its voice is now. Any small or larger restoration is going to change its propio sello, to some extent

If you are not interested in that, and all you want is a nice looking instrument that would perhaps, play OK, then have at it. But keep in mind that you will most likely have an instrument that has already lost its value or will lose much of its value due to certain repairs made.

If you have an experienced repairman do the work then expect to pay what the job is worth. But my experience has been that many repairmen will try to fill in the present patina of the top finish rather than try and replace it with a new finish.

I use a touch up small "Air Brush" spray unit, taking some clear plastic with sized holes to spray tint the raw wood without over spray, then let dry and lightly spray clear finish over it to seal in the color, then let dry, and french polish to smooth out the finish to a flat surface.

This way you can maintain the original finish without sanding any wood that would have the potential to hurt the tone.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2016 15:40:40

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to Leñador)

I say , just play it man ...the dings are battle honours of lost times , party medals worn with pride ...
.
you never said if you liked the sound or not .??
......if yes .. then keep it and be the rough man of flamenco ... like Rory Gallaghers Strat ...

if no ...then have at it and you wont loose , cos you didnt like the sound anyway ....
but a proper refinish , i would say will change the sound ...but to what ..?
maybe more treble , maybe a bit brighter ...depends on how its done ..
and even after the refinish you would have to wait a while for the resettling in to occur again ..
.
.
have a real good think about this first ...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2016 16:30:28

Jose Marques

Posts: 35
Joined: Feb. 13 2020

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

When we build violins we have to do tricks to make them look old and used. When we build guitars we have to make them look like they are covered with ultra shine plastic and never touched by anyone or anything.

Violinists dont think much about scratches, dings and cracks. Guitarists go all berserk if a guitar has a crack along the fingerboard and few dings and a sweat mark on the sides..

Its a confusing world.

ahahah so true

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2020 15:43:35

Armando

Posts: 302
Joined: May 27 2005
From: Zürich, Switzerland

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Fully agree Anders. I don't get it either. I would leave it how it is.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2020 17:13:40

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Repairing scratches/dings (in reply to siliconsoniquete)

I'm with Estebanna's and Anders' first comments.

And isn't it amazing that some people are such pigs with valuable guitars?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2020 18:01:24