My attempt for Recuerdos de la Alhambra

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Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

My attempt for Recuerdos de la Alhambra

I know it is not flamenco but Paco Pena plays it too

Be nice, it is not perfect and I welcome constructive criticism as usual.

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2015 23:23:47

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

quote:

I know it is not flamenco but Paco Pena plays it too

Make it more flamenco, and use p-iami tremolo.

Be careful with 2:02 & 2:40 (same part). I think you've learned it incorrectly at that part (which is repeated twice). I think you are missing some notes, and so the rhythm gets off. Otherwise, of course it needs to be cleaner and the dynamics need to be improved. It's a pretty tough piece, so not anyone can get through it like you did. Congratulations!

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 0:03:51

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

quote:

I know it is not flamenco but Paco Pena plays it too

Good work. Continue working on it and perfecting it using the classical tremolo. My advice is DO NOT use the flamenco tremolo p-iami. Francisco Tarrega composed it with the classical tremolo, and it should be learned and perfected using the classical tremolo.

A few years ago I began working on Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo because I found the flamenco tremolo easier to maintain a steady, dead-on tremolo than the classical, and I still do. Nevertheless, to play Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo slows it down and throws off the timing. If you want it to sound the way Tarrega meant it to sound, and the way you hear it played at its best, play it using the classical tremolo.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 1:12:21

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

Nice job, tough tune. Classical piece and your right hand is fine for that (in flamenco tremolo we rest the thumb more). Is that a real Miguel Rodriguez guitar? It's probably not compensated so you have some little intonation issues that you need to work on left hand wise. Careful of pulling certain notes sharp...assuming strings and tuning (oh god!) are good initially, you might need to make an effort to push (toward bridge) some of those notes, especially on 3rd string, up higher.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 1:14:02

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Ricardo)

Thanks.

Yes it is Miguel Rodriguez 1987.

Ricardo Can you please clarify this sentence more ?

" It's probably not compensated so you have some little intonation issues that you need to work on left hand wise. "

Thanks Ramzi. I tried Flamenco tremolo and it did not sound good.

TK

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 1:22:03

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

tuning (oh god!)

Would you believe that I thought about asking why the intonation seemed way off and immediately got back to the "me being stupid for not enjoying Paco" thread instead of typing anything here?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 1:26:31

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

Appart from the tuning being slightly off, I really enjoyed listenning to this. A little move variation in dynamics maybe.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 1:33:56

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

Liked this a lot, it even reminded me to get back into practicing tremolo because after that Granados tremolo I kinda left it behind but this seems like a fun piece to practice, hope it isn't too advanced.

Without engaging into any tuning debate, it is much more off than "slightly", that's the only downside... specially when you go to the upper frets.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 1:40:40

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sr. Martins
Without engaging into any tuning debate, it is much more off than "slightly", that's the only downside... specially when you go to the upper frets.

and that's coming from a man that first says he has "a relitively big one" but later admits "I think I have a small one".

If there is such a thing as being relatively in tune then perhaps you were (but that's coming from a guy that has to guess if the beats have stopped

)

But for sure, you video is relatively great.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 3:42:49

minorthang

Posts: 222
Joined: Dec. 25 2014

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

tk that was and is awesome so much study - the tremlo is strange not used in so much classical rep - but u have it down-- maybe some peope may be interested to how u developed it ?

not that i can play at that level yet maybe a little slower and milk the notes use agogic accent too outline cadential movement from section to section (outlining the phrases ) or sections

great stuff really great

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 11:01:02

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

Amazing stamina man! Good work!

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 13:18:05

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

It really sounds 100X better when you play the dynamics as indicated in the score. Try it and listen to both versions side by side, you'll see.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 15:04:31

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

Thanks all for the nice and constructive comments.

There are some classical pieces; that no matter what kind of music player you are, you should attempt to play them. They never go bad....

Recuerdos is for sure one of them.

Listening back, I clearly agree that I had to tune the guitar better next time

TK

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 16:46:44

hamia

Posts: 403
Joined: Jun. 25 2004

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

I prefer versions where the players slow down at the end of each phrase (eg yepes).

You also played some wrong notes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 21:15:06

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to hamia)

quote:

You also played some wrong notes.

Can you pinpoint which notes please or where?

thanks

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 21:17:13

Lorenzo714

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Joined: Oct. 8 2013

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

I think you did an outstanding job!!! Wish my tremolo was that good

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2015 23:36:16

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tk

Thanks.

Yes it is Miguel Rodriguez 1987.

Ricardo Can you please clarify this sentence more ?

" It's probably not compensated so you have some little intonation issues that you need to work on left hand wise. "

Thanks Ramzi. I tried Flamenco tremolo and it did not sound good.

TK

To clarify...since you already admitted you need to tune "better", let me just say that it is not so noticeable a problem down in low position as up higher (as you are tuned in this video)....there is a thread on here about "compensation"... a topic of which I learned that many old heavy weight luthiers (such as Reyes or Conde etc) did NOT compensate guitars, but almost all modern luthiers do...that means they adjust the bridge to let the notes play a hair FLATTER as you go up the neck...since MANY players are not careful about the rubber bandy feel as they go up and tend to make the notes go sharp because the strings bend over the frets and change pitch very easily.

I was making an educated guess that your guitar is not compensated...it being from a heavy weight old school spanish luthier....but it could also be the strings or....YOUR PLAYING. I think you could try several things, but I encourage attempting to play in tune using left hand technique vs having a vintage guitar modified (as it seems many folks have been doing lately).

Anyway, as long as YOU can hear the issue in your video I am sure you will discover a solution on your own. Again nice work after all.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2015 1:24:38

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Lorenzo714)

quote:

I think you did an outstanding job!!! Wish my tremolo was that good

Thank you Lorenzo.

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2015 16:41:07

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

To clarify...since you already admitted you need to tune "better", let me just say that it is not so noticeable a problem down in low position as up higher (as you are tuned in this video)....there is a thread on here about "compensation"... a topic of which I learned that many old heavy weight luthiers (such as Reyes or Conde etc) did NOT compensate guitars, but almost all modern luthiers do...that means they adjust the bridge to let the notes play a hair FLATTER as you go up the neck...since MANY players are not careful about the rubber bandy feel as they go up and tend to make the notes go sharp because the strings bend over the frets and change pitch very easily.

Ricardo, thank you for the clarification. That makes complete sense. I will look further into this. Thanks again

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2015 16:43:47

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

You could try compensating on the saddle bone if it isn't already. I guess it won't be enough on that particular guitar but it's better than nothing.

Anyways, the problem could also be defective strings. Try some D'Addarios.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2015 16:53:10

Cervantes

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

That is pretty impressive for an attempt.
As Dudnote mentioned it needs more dynamics, it sounds all too even.
Listen to some really good classical guitarists playing it.
I have been working hard on my flamenco tremolo and making good progress.
Still i would not be able to play this anywhere near as good as you did.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2015 23:49:09

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to Cervantes)

quote:

That is pretty impressive for an attempt.
As Dudnote mentioned it needs more dynamics, it sounds all too even.
Listen to some really good classical guitarists playing it.
I have been working hard on my flamenco tremolo and making good progress.
Still i would not be able to play this anywhere near as good as you did.

Thanks Cervantes. When it comes to dynamics, it becomes more of a matter of taste. See, I love john williams, his playing style and it is in general perceived by many to be "cold". I actually wanted to play this piece in a way that it sounded "all too even" as you say. I thought, if it was a "tremolo etude", Tarrega wanted it to be "even".

But since more than one individual suggested different dynamics, i am going to record this piece with different dynamics and see how it is going to sound.

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 22 2015 23:54:34

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

quote:

Thanks Ramzi. I tried Flamenco tremolo and it did not sound good.

Read the rest of my feedback also, and you will find answers to some other questions you asked about other posters' feedback.

(that is, "wrong notes")

Compare what I referenced to what John does here...

Cheers!

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Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2015 4:43:17

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

quote:

Thanks Ramzi. I tried Flamenco tremolo and it did not sound good.

Yes, exactly my point. The flamenco tremolo slows down the piece significantly and that's why I don't like it.

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2015 4:56:47

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

Read the rest of my feedback also, and you will find answers to some other questions you asked about other posters' feedback. (that is, "wrong notes")

can you be more specific on this please?

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2015 5:06:36

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

I think you can get a decent tempo with p-iami if you practice.

Specifics on feedback: "2:02 & 2:40 (same part). I think you've learned it incorrectly at that part (which is repeated twice). I think you are missing some notes, and so the rhythm gets off."

Review the score, my friend. Go over it note by note, and go over what you do in the video. You will then understand...

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2015 5:39:48

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

Just for the heck of it.
I own an estudio from Miguel Rodriguez label which was likely built by Vicente Sanchis though. But as building from that time was mentioned:
Two things that were most remarkable to me with this guitar have been
# how much it bears the typical sound that I am familar with from recordings with concert level M.R. guitars. It lacks the immediacy and crispness of a top notch instrument, but other than that typical sound characteristics of M.R. are quite there.
# the intonation. It was what stuck out the most to me. It is better than with any other of my nylon stringed guitars, and I own some really fine ones.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2015 9:45:05

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

quote:

Yes, exactly my point. The flamenco tremolo slows down the piece significantly and that's why I don't like it.

As I wrote in my comment at the beginning of this thread: "Continue working on it and perfecting it using the classical tremolo. My advice is do not use the flamenco tremolo p-iami. Francisco Tarrega composed it with the classical tremolo, and it should be learned and perfected using the classical tremolo...to play Recuerdos using the flamenco tremolo slows it down and throws off the timing."

You have noted the same thing. The flamenco tremolo changes the tempo significantly, and there is no way, nor need there be, to compensate for that.

You are doing a great job with Recuerdos as it is, TK. Keep up the good work. I look forward to the final, polished product.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2015 11:21:15

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

It is an etude, but it is marked with dynamics by the composer. Try those first. There is a reason he put them there. They're part of the piece. I tell this to my 6 year old daughter all the time, and sometimes she listens.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2015 14:50:04

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: My attempt for Recuerdos de la A... (in reply to tk)

Mariano Cordoba taught it to me with the flamenco tremolo, which he preferred. He felt the piece worked better with the slower tempo, as it allowed him to express more emotion. Are there any tempo indications on the original score? If not, the composer's intention in regards to tempo are not clear. If so, then obviously the classical tremolo and the tempo it allows surely is in line with his intention. But even that, to me, is not a reason not to use the flamenco tremolo and play it slower if that results in a more satisfying experience for the player. But I never spent much time studying classical guitar, and I know those folks can be as particular about what is permissible as flamencos are about compas.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 23 2015 15:52:48