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Sabicas 1939
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Sabicas 1939 (in reply to rombsix)
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quote:
Highlights of the clip: 1:56 through 2:00 --> ligado show-off (look ma, no right hand!)
Carlos Montoya frequently did an extended ligado while holding up his right hand, and, of course, the audience loved it. That was one of the reasons many disparaged Carlos's playing, along with his extended tremolos and lack of compas discipline. Nevertheless, Carlos could actually play very well when he wanted to, and in his earlier days he accompanied some fine dancers, including La Teresina and La Argentina.
Sabicas has always been my favorite flamenco guitarist, bar none. Nevertheless, as this clip demonstrates, even the great Sabicas was not above a little showmanship. I guess we shouldn't be too hard on Carlos.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 17 2015 16:24:33
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Sabicas 1939 (in reply to Grisha)
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quote:
Showmanship is present in dance and in some cante. Why should guitar paying be any different?
I agree, Grisha. I just wanted to point out that many flamencos disparaged Carlos Montoya's playing, mainly because he often did not observe compas discipline, but I have also heard him criticized because of his "show-off" ligados and his extended tremolos. I think much of the criticism was just plain envy because Carlos was drawing huge audiences that would fill auditoriums for his performances at a time (the '50s, '60s, and '70s) when others were not.
I will always appreciate Carlos Montoya because he introduced me to flamenco. When I was 17 I first bought a vinyl LP of Carlos playing flamenco, and then I saw him perform in person in Phoenix, Arizona. I saw him live a couple of times after that as well, including once in 1982 at the Kennedy Center in Washington, DC. That was a time when flamenco guitarists would perform solo, with no other guitars, no cajon (it was before Paco introduced the cajon from Peru) and certainly no bass guitar and harmonicas!
Criticism aside, Carlos really could play well when he wanted to. And when he was younger he did play for some very good dancers, including, as I mentioned previously, La Teresina and La Argentina. In my opinion, Carlos was the one who first popularized flamenco guitar in the U.S.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 17 2015 18:11:50
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Sabicas 1939 (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
about carlos showmanship...sorry that is not what it is that people don't like. I was not surprised at all about his criticism .... as a teen I listened to both with no prejudices or deep understanding, and it was clear that Sabicas had a fine touch and sound and skill at accompanying.... Carlos' recordings were very hard to tolerate due to the tone and what he was doing. I admit I had a relisten to St. Louis to Seville and there are some cool things on there after all...but to compare the two because they were concertizing in USA is silly IMO.
I wasn't comparing them because they were both concertizing in the U.S., Ricardo. I just meant it as an aside that Carlos was criticized for his "show-off" ligado while holding his right hand up. I have heard that criticism, and I just pointed out that Sabicas also did it in the clip, although not nearly as long and to the extent that Carlos did. It was just an unimportant observation on my part.
Carlos really often did shred compas though, and he sometimes sounded a little "rough," although he did not seem to care. And he has been roundly criticized for that, with good reason. The interesting thing is he actually could play well and in compas when he wanted to, which makes one wonder why he didn't do it all the time?
I think I have stated clearly that although I will always appreciate Carlos Montoya for introducing me to flamenco guitar as a teenager, I graduated to Sabicas, and Sabicas remains to this day my favorite all-time flamenco guitarist; and, as I mentioned above, one whose CD I would want if stranded on a desert island and I could have only one CD with me. I totally agree with your observation that Sabicas had a much more refined touch and sound than Carlos.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 18 2015 13:19:58
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Sabicas 1939 (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
THe thing with carlos is that, along with everything else that is distasteful, the hold up the right hand thing as he did often is like icing on the cheese cake.
I have often wondered why Carlos played as he did, when he clearly had the ability to play well, in compas, and without the cheesy showmanship. Was it all his idea? Did his manager or agent push it? Was his American wife, in part, responsible? In the end, it had to come down to Carlos deciding to do it, as he could have resisted it had he wanted to, regardless who pushed it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 19 2015 12:36:26
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Sabicas 1939 (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
I have often wondered why Carlos played as he did, when he clearly had the ability to play well, in compas, and without the cheesy showmanship. Was it all his idea? Did his manager or agent push it? Was his American wife, in part, responsible? In the end, it had to come down to Carlos deciding to do it, as he could have resisted it had he wanted to, regardless who pushed it.
Bill
It must have been his American wife.
The old joke about the happiest man in the world applies:
The happiest man in the world has an American salary, a Japanese wife an English home and fine Chinese food.
The saddest man in the world has an American wife, a Chinese salary a Japanese home and English food.
_______
Clearly however Carlos far was inferior to Sabicas because Carlos was never booked into the Jernigan Suites when he toured. This caused Carlos to lose sleep, be stressed out and to get sloppy when on stage because his American wife badgered him about the accommodations.
While Sabicas always stayed in the JS and probably had cocaine hidden under his tooupee'.
Not to poop on the party, but I like Sabicas, how can you not like him? You would have to be a real naffer ( is that word? ) to not like him. But there is something often predictable about how he structures things that I find samey. However his picado often seems better than Paco's and his sound is great.
I like other guitar players of his era better, I am more into Nino Ricardo and Perico del Lunar, Morao clan, but Sabicas has to be dealt with no matter what.
I also used to have a Montoya recording where he played for Nino de Almaden, he was not cheesy he just took care of business. So he went into a commercial kind of mode later, but who can blame him? With that American wife always jealous of Sabicas girlfriends and the way they holed up in the Jernigan Suite with a bottle of fino and room service. The Jerngan Suite was been the room of choice for musical royalty since the age of the Plantagenents.
American women were Nabokov's undoing as well, so it's no wonder Carlos had trouble with compas, being married to one. Word has it Carlos wanted to be a writer and to get on the bus with the Electric Kool Aid Acid test gang, but his wife prevented him from hooking up with Ken Kesey. He also wanted to get rooted deep into the American counter culture and work with the Grateful Dead, which is also why he cultivated his sense of showmanship. He thought Jerry might notice him and want to have him throw down a ton of pull offs while Pig Pen jammed with him on drums.
Long before Carlos Montoya wanted to join in on the Summer of Love fun, his American wife took him to Brooklyn. They looked onto the possibility of buying a dry cleaners so Carlos could make a living without going on tours and then he could stay home and write in the evenings. Brooklyn did not suit him however, and despite the protesting of this wife they moved to Manhattan where she danced in a club called Casbah by Night, she was a specialist with a red sash and a sword with a jewel encrusted handle. She balanced the sword on her head while Carlos played and she held it so there so long he had to invent a left hand ligado that could stretch like an elastic band while he waited for her to resolve the sword moves. He reportedly could ligado on one note for twenty minutes. He considered was the pinnacle of NY City showmanship and even during the heady days that Camelot was hitting Broadway, show goers would taxi over to Casbah at Night to catch Carlos' infinity loop ligados while chit chatting about the musicals and plays they had seen that evening.
Eventually it was apparent that Carlos would never write that novel, press slacks in a tidy corner of Brooklyn or take LSD in Golden Gate park. He lived out a comfortable life and recorded with singers who had long ago passed their expiration dates. He was happy to go down in flamenco history as the monster of all pull offs, and his USA minted wife after all made one hell of a macaroni and cheese casserole.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 19 2015 14:01:15
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