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RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo)
Ricardo, your Rito data match something I've found in the March-April 2001 issue of Candil, dedicated to Morao. It indicates that his father was Manuel Moreno de Soto y Monje (1902-1955), a singer of bulerías al golpe and guitarist. That's quite a flamenco name. "Soto" is the Sordera family, which goes back to Paco La Luz, and it was also one of the last names of Manuel Torre's father. "Monje" is thought to be one of the last names of the Marrurro brothers and it was definitely one of the last names of Terremoto padre and Camarón. Someone with that same last name told me that there are two Monje families, one in Cádiz and another in Jerez.
In an interview (no info on date or publication but the author is Francisco González), Manuel Morao (the uncle) said that he didn't know of any special meaning of "Morao," adding that artistic names often don't indicate anything specific or accurately reflect anything real. He said that he thought "Morao" might go back to his great grandfather.
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Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
it would be Morenito entonces o
No it wouldnt .... i think you may be confused ....
Moreno and Morao go together , like Curro and Fransisco
so remember his uncle was Moraíto (Manuel Moreno a.k.a. Manuel Morao), and son of the original Moraíto Chico (Juan Moreno). And he is Moraito Chico 2.0 as his Dad was Juan Moreno ( Moraíto Chico 1.0 )
And I just looked to see if it continues in the family and of course it does as his son is Diego Del Morao,
quote:
morenchico or diego del morencito
As to those two they are two names that will never exist ,,, I hope ......
Maybe you could take one as your Flamenco name .... Mezzochico , or Mezzocito , if you have a son ....
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
didn't Tomatito's Grandfather get the name "Tomate" '
I think i remember on an interview somewhere him saying that his Dad had the nickname "EL Tomate" so he would be Tomatito ,,,and some joke about a daughter being " Tomatita" but I dont remember all of it .......
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to El Kiko)
Hey kikito thanks for your explaination about Curro, I always wondered what this diminutive means
But I did not clearly understand what you meant by "Moreno and Morao go together". Do you actually think that Morao is actually a contraction or a diminutive of Moreno, like Curro or Pepe are for other names?
quote:
i think you may be confused ....
Well in that case my bad! But I'm pretty convinced for my part that you missed a couple of steps here
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
Morao is actually a contraction or a diminutive of Moreno, like Curro or Pepe are for other names?
No its not a diminutive , maybe I dont explain well , ..Curro and pepe are not diminutives , just alternate names for Fransisco ...
Mean if his Father was Juan Moreno , but he was known as a natural kind of nickname as Juan Morao , and he , earlier would have also , i guess been known as Moraito, when he was younger . And now its his son , so he would (probably ) inherit the nickname too. of Moraito becuase , at the time he gets the nickname , he is younger , little , hence the diminutive.. but he also has another diminutive which is the 'Chico' bit . As he is smaller , it also , may , imply he is the youngest or only son ..but not always .... It seems clearer to me ...maybe I am not the one to explain languages and nicknames
Example ...there is a "Chico" that lives near me called Chico Paredes . his name really is Rafael Paredes ... and so is his Dad called the same...although he has 2 brothers he is the youngest and , i dont know why , just got the chico nickname ...if his dad had a nickname he may have got that as well...but in this case he didnt ...
Kikito works (and I am the youngest as well) but this is not a rule as the first born is always the youngest until the second is born ...but really if there was a Kikito here it would be my son ,.... (Anyway in Spain my nickname is spelled Quiquo , Its just with K here for ease of typing and pronunceing ..... not that that is important. )
I just knew I should have stayed out of this thread .....
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
No its not a diminutive , maybe I dont explain well , ..Curro and pepe are not diminutives , just alternate names for Fransisco ...
Sorry kiko I'm still confused about your reasoning I'm not able to determine in what way you associated Morao and Moreno in your mind.
Curro Dulce - (Curro's alternative for Francisco) or Rafael Romero "el Gallina" - (Gallina's alternative for Romero) or Gallina is something else. El gallinito could be his son's name.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
maybe I dont explain well , ..
maybe.... but i think we get the way nicknames are handed from father or uncle to son or nephew....
and i thought we got established that morao is from morado meaning purple.
and moreno means brown, or dark skinned, and it's the surname
so unless i'm missing something here, moreno is nothing to do with morao, except just a coincidence here that someone has moreno as a surname and morao as a nickname....
or maybe i'm just more confused than i think i am
and i thought the real question was: how or why did the first morao get called morao in the first place?
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
Ok guys that don't want to read the thread, for the abridged version that answers the question of the initial post:
ONLY READ NORMAN'S POSTS IN THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!
and the answer is.... nobody knows.
but at least we got the question clarified
Uh NO! The answer is simply it was passed down 3 generations. The secondary question of what was the ORIGIN (grandfather or possibly great grandfather, or even older) is pretty much arbitrary relative to importance of inhereted nicknames in flamenco in general.
Morao is purple, tomate is tomato, habichuelas are beans. Doesn't mean some guy's favorite color is purple, one sells loves or throws tomatoes, or the other only eats beans. THis is FLAMENCO!!! HELLO!!!
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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo)
...but Sabicas himself said he got his nickname because as a kid he loved "sabas" [habas]=broad beans. Carried them around in his pockets. So all flamenco nicknames have to mean something, and there has to be a cool story about them. It's just up to the ethno-musico-nicknamers to discover the stories!
While in Spain this past June, I ordered habas con jamon several times in honor of Sabicas. I also ate berenjanas, but their purpleness imparted no insight into the nomenclature of los Moraos.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
...but Sabicas himself said he got his nickname because as a kid he loved "sabas" [habas]=broad beans. Carried them around in his pockets. So all flamenco nicknames have to mean something, and there has to be a cool story about them. It's just up to the ethno-musico-nicknamers to discover the stories!
While in Spain this past June, I ordered habas con jamon several times in honor of Sabicas. I also ate berenjanas, but their purpleness imparted no insight into the nomenclature of los Moraos.
RNJ
But if Sabicas had a guitar playing grandson named "Sabaito hijo", the important thing is his name got passed down....he is not required to carry jumping beans to every gig. Terremoto is another good one...I always though cuz of his tremendous voice, or maybe he got over weight and dance super heavy duty . But the truth was he said as a little kid he used to vandalize public and private property! Anyway, it's a no brainer why his SON took on the same name.
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
THis is FLAMENCO!!! HELLO!!!
you think people get nickname's for no reason? what, you really think the elders put random words in a hat and when a new artist is born they pick one out?
Paco got his name after his mother
the origin of Sabicas's sobriquet is well documented (here by Richard, thank you),
Camarón got his name when his uncle José nicknamed him Camarón (Spanish for "Shrimp") because he was blonde and fair skinned.
Tomatito inherited his name, but I think I did hear something about how his Grandfather came to be "El Tomate", I will have to see if I can remember/find the reference.
Moraíto inherited his too, I thought that was obvious/common knowledge from Juan and/or Manuel Morao, but didn't realise, as Norman explained, that they in turn had inherited the Morao name (thank you Norman). If the family don't know why the first Morao got the name, I think it's fairly safe to assume that, as I said, "nobody knows"
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo)
This isn't where I heard about the derivation of Tomatito's name before, but just found this in an article about Spanish naming customs;
"Sometimes the artistic name consists of the home town appended to the first name (Manolo Sanlúcar, Ramón de Algeciras); but many, perhaps most, of such names are more eccentric: Pepe de la Matrona (because his mother was a midwife); Perico del Lunar (because he had a mole); Tomatito (son of a father known as Tomate (tomato) because of his red face); Sabicas (because of his childhood passion for green beans, from niño de las habicas); and many more."
EDIT:
quote:
Tomatito (son of a father known as Tomate (tomato) because of his red face);
I think they got that a bit wrong, as Tomatito says (in Encuentro interview) that it the name came originally not from his dad El Tomate but from his grandad Miguel Tomate.
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mark indigo)
Didn't want to start an own thread but is Manuel Moreno still alive? I found on the web that he was born on 1929, but no mention of death. I have always thought that moraito comes from word moreno.
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to NormanKliman)
Manuel Moreno sigue en este mundo y Dios lo guarde muchos años. Moreno y Morao para nada van de la mano porque tienen significados distintos... moreno lo podéis traducir como bruno o castaño y morao (morado) como lila (purple). En Andalucía se dice que alguien está "morao" cuando se ha atiborrado de algo , como comida o bebida normalmente , es una similitud con el color lila que puede coger la piel de una persona cuando no puede más comer o beber. Espero habéis explicado bien
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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mezzo
quote:
No its not a diminutive , maybe I dont explain well , ..Curro and pepe are not diminutives , just alternate names for Fransisco ...
Sorry kiko I'm still confused about your reasoning I'm not able to determine in what way you associated Morao and Moreno in your mind.
Curro Dulce - (Curro's alternative for Francisco) or Rafael Romero "el Gallina" - (Gallina's alternative for Romero) or Gallina is something else. El gallinito could be his son's name.
I recollect that Rafael Romero's mother's nickname was La Gallina, thus Rafael's name would be the usual Gitano contraction of "El de la Gallina."
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