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RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
I live in Andalucia. Bullfighting is big. Way, way, way bigger than flamenco. You'll see some posters for flamenco shows every now and then but the bullfighting ones get put literally EVERYWHERE.
Not something I'm remotely interested in and it's amazing how people think the issue is actually the killing of the bull and not the extreme torture! It's almost funny.
There is no real connection I have ever come across with them. I suspect proud nationals are linking them or just people that like both.
Having said this, for the first time ever, I have seen that the latest bullfight does co-promote a Flamenco night. Never seen this before today.
Why is the bull the symbol of Spain? Why not the matador? It's a nice symbol but they kill their own symbol?
Flamenco is strongly associated with gitanos and I don't think gitanos are associated with bullfighting.
To some extent I can understand the Spanish doing what they have always done but what kind of tourist from another country where they don't do this goes to these things?! That's the biggest thing I don't get. I understand it's big for tourist purposes.
Now someone please tell me I'm talking our of my backside
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
I respect it but I can't understand it. Sorry. And you Morante, you're not a spanish native you're a guiri. Don't act like you have to defend spanish culture. Sometimes I think you're like 17.
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
My only thought on the matter, which I'm sure no one cares but It makes me feel good to put it out there. It was actually a big thing where I grew up in LA too, my friends families would make trips down to T.J. for big fights and believe it or not there were even underground fights RIGHT IN L.A.
Just because something is ingrained in a culture doesn't make it okay. On that, just because something is brutal doesn't mean it's bad. That's just my belief, I eat meat, killing animals to eat them is brutal, even if it's quick, but I do it, I think it's fine. If you think brutal=bad you should be a vegetarian, because the meat business is brutal. Concerning bullfighting specifically, I don't care lol. It doesn't evoke much emotion from me one way or the other.l.....
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
I agree with Leñador! I never went to see a bullfight and I probably never will, but living here in Andalucia for so many years and many many discussions with friends and hardcore toro aficionados I have to admit I´ve learned to live with it. I´m a big meat eater myself and I don´t know if any of you ever seen videos of them chicken/meat factories? they are horrible! These animals never saw daylight in their live. This doesn´t stop me eating meat, I try to buy ecological whenever I can but I´m still guilty of buying meat from those horrendus meatfactories. At least the bulls have a short but more or less quality life...or at least a better life than a factory cow or chicken. Do I like it.. NO!! I wish it was different, but I stopped worrying about it. Traditions are difficult to change, even the horrible ones.
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to Leñador)
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If you think brutal=bad you should be a vegetarian, because the meat business is brutal.
This is exactly how I feel. If an anti-taurino wants to talk to me, I ask if he has ever seen a corrida. The answer is always no. Yo sí. Then I ask if he has ever seen the workings of a matadero (slaughterhouse). The answer is always no. Yo sí. Then I ask if he eats meat or chicken. The answer is usually yes. At this point I politely end the conversation: I cannot cope with this lack of logic (or hypocrisy )
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
Sometimes when I get in a bad mood or have a few drinks and get worked up about it I start saying if you aren't comfortable killing and cleaning an animal yourself you have no right to eat it. lol, My more moderate self comes to terms with the fact that's an unrealistic expectation of people........
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
The true contradiction of eating meat and being of empathical ability in the same time, still will not release sadist mentality from the question why it considers it acceptable to let deliberate cruelty happen to others that it would not be willing to accept on oneself in the same time.
Is the perfidious ignorance behind such attitude hard to be detected? And as there was mentioning of "understanding": Should figuring of vast and low indifference not come way before any understanding of sadist pleasures?
Ruphus
PS: Have you heard of the sadist background in psychology? Sadism is a poor sod´s refreshment on others´ pain, for its simply NOT happening to the poor sod himself. That is all, as banal motivation of enjoyment; hence the least thinkable of justification for torture to others.
Even if you may not feel like figuring low background of sadist enjoyments: Can you tell a reason what makes anyone or animal due to endure psycho demands? What do you think makes them legitimately due to live through pathological cravings of someone?
This is not meant as rhetorcial question. How do you concoct it?
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
quote:
still will not release sadist mentality from the question why it considers it acceptable to let deliberate cruelty happen to others that it would not be willing to accept on oneself in the same time.
The person who invented bullfighting WAAAAAY back when may have been sadistic but the people participating now have been a part of this from birth, they've been beyond desensitized to the "sadism" they would NEVER be able to see it as that. It's not about the bull and what it's going through, it's about the fighter and his "courage". Completely one sided view(like many traditions.).
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RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to Leñador)
down in Cordoba , and other parts of Andalucia bull fighting is very popular , and certain places you dont want to go into and speak bad about it unless you are wearing a suit of armor .. its on the telly a lot more that flamenco ..it has bigger crowds and afficionados than flamenco ... in fact by comparison flamenco is almost an underground cult... Although its probably difficult for some to belive its not seen as cruel at all, it is seen as an art form .. the best torero is a hero , someone to be revered. the Andalucians can go to the bull fight as a whole day out with food and wine and all the family Its culture , history , heritage, its linked with the whole way of life and time . Its Spain .
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
Lenny, Withinity,
What you are saying is correct and in the same time though leaving the inhumane conditions in place. Becoming desentized will not mean that sadistic background is being neutralized. A spectator who is not feeling with a tortured creature, still is being aware about what he would not be wanting to be going through himself while watching it happening to others. The bizarre pleasure of perfidity is still fully in place.
Good that you mention gladiator games. They used to serve the very same background that is given in bullfighting. And these games from a distinct point of view in fact serve perfectly for the opposite example of civilisation. Quoting myself from a foregone thread:
quote:
Then again, there has been historical example that indicates civility as culturally conditioned.
The ancient Greeks refused to visit gladiator games the Romans had brought to them. They would disdain the cruelty, perceive no delight through sadistic voyeurism, even when the Romans then tried luring them in with time off ( and snacks, I think ) for visiting the games, and yet when Romans finally forced them to go.
And finally there is the relevance of actually ongoing circumstances in contrast to the arbitrariness of whatever ( ignorant) viewing. If spectators´classifying of third´s pain as neglectable would actually render pain void, such games could be held without brutal consequences to the victim.
However and unfortunately, this is not being the case and the harm staying undiminished. From there irrelevant what people with individual culture may possibly consider passable as effect on thirds, as for the victim actually nothing changes.
Let´s keep in mind that the nature of evil is the fancy of two different sets of applying law. The one applying to thirds and the other one very differently to oneself. There exists no conclusive refuge for alike intellectual failure / comforting and miserable malice. -
One example that I like to mention about insensibility is the following: Until early 20th century physicians were convinced that the nervous system of suckling was not yet developed enough to sense pain. So, they would operate babies without anaesthesia.
You can certainly imagine how the sucklings would vehemently react to such approach. Yet, physicians would procede despite of objective symptoms with suffering sucklings, simply because of the operators´ conviction. Today one may remotely estimate the trauma for countless victims of stoical ignorance, throughout their pity lives.
Noteworthy how the ignoring of the walk through hell, however persistantly, could not in a way lessen anything about the wordly facts of enduring. And today I assume we are all being really glad that physicians finally changed their mind and procedure.
A same thing due to matadores and perfidly gloating public. The sooner they come to senses the better.
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to wikichris)
quote:
I have seen that the latest bullfight does co-promote a Flamenco night. Never seen this before today
I dont want to get into another argument on the rights, wrongs, morals and ethics of bullfighting but i would ike to correct a few inacuaracies in this post as you say you live in Andalucia. You never saw a bull fight and flamenco advertised before??? You can not have lived here very long. Its everywhere!!
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There is no real connection I have ever come across with them.
Bulfighting and flamenco have lots in common. The pasos of the bullfighter are similar to the male flamenco dancer. Paso doble relates both to the bullfight and flamenco. Bullfighting often used as a theme for flamenco composition (Manolo Sanlucar- Tauromagia and Emilio Maya-Temple)
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Why is the bull the symbol of Spain?
That's like asking why Santa is a symbol of Christmas. Santas image was created by Coca cola. The Bull is a corporate symbol of Osbourne Brandy that is allowed to stand on hillsides.
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Flamenco is strongly associated with gitanos and I don't think gitanos are associated with bullfighting.
What are you talking about?? There have been and still are many Gypsy bullfighters. Why do they call Javier Conde el Gitano? Its one way (like boxing in other countries) that someone can come from humble beginings and become famous.
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That's the biggest thing I don't get. I understand it's big for tourist purposes.
Maybe thats partly true in the coast, like Torremolinos or Benalmadena but in places like Granada its nearly all Spanish. Its still very popular and expensive and often more well attended than the football matches. Spanish tourism is popular on the coast in summer and these corridas attract Spanish holiday makers.
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
quote:
quote:
Flamenco is strongly associated with gitanos and I don't think gitanos are associated with bullfighting.
I find this really quite remarkable. There's an excellent blog post here, El Adorno: «Los gitanos y el toreo»: Por Luis García Caviedes that is well worth reading. I'll roughly paraphrase the bit concerning Camaron, "The solea is Curro [Romero's] faena de muleta, very slow and a compas." This is more or less exactly what I quoted Menese as saying in my previous post.
I don't have a big aficion for the toros. I do have a lot of aficion for the cante. My own view is that the cantaor and the torero are both looking for the same thing. This is an emotive subject and I wouldn't dream of trying to persuade anyone to abandon their strongly-held views. However, I would respectfully suggest to the anti-taurino people that if they could at least consider the link between tauromaquia and the cante they might add to their understanding of what, for example, the solea can offer.
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to Pimientito)
quote:
You never saw a bull fight and flamenco advertised before??? You can not have lived here very long. Its everywhere!!
Flamenco/bullfighting co-promotion is not the norm. It really isn't. I read them all - I quite like the art. If I have to take pictures of all the ones billposted over the next year I will. It is not "everywhere".
quote:
Bulfighting and flamenco have lots in common. The pasos of the bullfighter are similar to the male flamenco dancer. Paso doble relates both to the bullfight and flamenco. Bullfighting often used as a theme for flamenco composition (Manolo Sanlucar- Tauromagia and Emilio Maya-Temple)
Sure the connections are there.
quote:
That's like asking why Santa is a symbol of Christmas. Santas image was created by Coca cola. The Bull is a corporate symbol of Osbourne Brandy that is allowed to stand on hillsides.
You and I know there is bit more to it than that...all the locals have them on their cars. Hell even I do.
quote:
What are you talking about?? There have been and still are many Gypsy bullfighters. Why do they call Javier Conde el Gitano? Its one way (like boxing in other countries) that someone can come from humble beginings and become famous.
I'm sure there are but that was not my point.
You're looking hard for links. Sure they are there but there is no strong connection. I have a lot of Spanish friends. To many Spanish, if you mention flamenco there's a good chance someone will mention gitano culture in the conversation. If you mention bullfighting no one is going to say "Oh, there is a gitano bullfighter!" or talk about gitanos.
quote:
Maybe thats partly true in the coast, like Torremolinos or Benalmadena but in places like Granada its nearly all Spanish. Its still very popular and expensive and often more well attended than the football matches. Spanish tourism is popular on the coast in summer and these corridas attract Spanish holiday makers.
Probably but I was personally referring to Madrid. I sit in the office all day between 2 guys from Madrid. They are very indifferent about bullfighting and only really talk about the business side of it.
Flamenco/bullfighting relationship summary: some connections are there but it's not anywhere near as strong as some people are implying. They are not intertwined in any strong sense like say gitano culture and flamenco is.
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
It's fine that you discuss about ethic and culture, but I have to say, you don't have to understand bullfighting to be a good flamenco. I'm not spanish, sometimes I feel like a foreigner, sometimes like a spaniard who's born here. But I always know that I will never have the sonikete of a gitano born in jerez. When someone's asking me if I like the bullfight I usually say something like "I don't know" and shut up. I have to respect this and I don't want to argue about it because I have no clue. And I'm happy with that. I'm german and it's okay when I don't understand something of their culture and I think it's important to know where you come from. No one really want's you to forget your culture, it's part of your identity and I think it's very disrespectful if someone's demands this from you. I'm here to learn to play authentic, but I think it's more important to understand letras and to understand how to speak like a flamenco than to understand the bullfight. Andalusians are very religous and many palos (saeta, martinete) are about their feelings about god and jesus. Morante, are you religious? No? Oh man you just don't understand their culture. You see how dumb this is? Gitanos usally love the bullfight but there're many, especially young people, who hate it. And they play a lot better than I. Do they don't understand their own culture as well? We talking about stereotypes and I'm happy people are bit more complex than this.
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to athrane77)
quote:
It's fine that you discuss about ethic and culture
Greetings jof,
I didn't mention ethics or culture. I just quoted Camaron and expressed my own opinion. I have no desire to change your opinions or anyone else's for that matter. I wanted to add to the discussion - without inflaming it - by reflecting on the historical links between the two art forms.
Your commitment - in terms of getting down to Jerez - is to be commended. I sincerely hope it's going well for you.
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to athrane77)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jof
I have to respect this and I don't want to argue about it because I have no clue. And I'm happy with that.
Sounds so totally correct in a way. Doesn´t it.
Why should one care about a sword sticking through anyone´s torso. It should after all be concerning the stabber only.
If I was say doing a family tour through New Zealand and some nostalgic Maori fellas felt like grabbing a nephew or so of mine in order to make of marinated T-bone steaks for an aniversary celebration or so, I would let them do. Because who am I to tell peeps on the other side of the planet what to do. First of all I am not from NZ for one, and secondly who knows how neuro-scientifical conditions are looking like down there. Maybe it does not even hurt to be partitioned in that part of the world. And in the end, whether or not, that would be the Maoris´ business anyway. Ain´t really that complicated, innit.
The civilisatory question hence ought to be where you are treated and not how. -> Thus, ... err actually in the end be a geographical matter. Correct? Or politically correct?
Ruphus
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RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to changue)
Ruphus, you just can not expect everyone to have the same morals and ethics as you. If you go to a part of the world where cannibalism is widely accepted then you shouldn't be surprised when they eat your nephew. I think Maoris are more likely to pass you a doobie then eat your nephew though.....
RE: The Bullfight Bloody "UPSET... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Leñador
Ruphus, you just can not expect everyone to have the same morals and ethics as you. If you go to a part of the world where cannibalism is widely accepted then you shouldn't be surprised when they eat your nephew. I think Maoris are more likely to pass you a doobie then eat your nephew though.....
It´s not me, really. It is that the well-being of higher developed beings is not negotiable. It stays valuable independently from what might be thought.
And the world shall bow to principles like "Don't do unto others what you would not have done unto you", for below that level of sophistication no men should be living two millenia after Christ, on any spot on earth.
Justicia is global and cannot compromise on basics; traditions and rites aside.
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