Measurements

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Measurements

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

Measurements

Flamenco guitars are usually measured on many websites that sell them and even in here we talk about those numbers all the time. Regarding playability for the right hand, the distance between string and top at the saddle is what usually comes up but...

The thumb is placed mostly right after the rosette and thats the place where string height is mostly felt. Why no one cares to measure that when referring to "right hand action"?

Share your thoughts

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 3:41:05

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Measurements (in reply to Sr. Martins)

We have discussed this many times, but maybe its a while ago.
I totally agree with what you say and I try to build so that the string is as parrallel to the soundboard as possible. This way the thumb feels the same when you move the hand around.
You can find guitars with stringheight at the soundhole more than 3mm higher than at the bridge and that is very uncomfortable

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 7:01:41

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Measurements (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hmm, I see.. Maybe this measurement should be more popular.

What is considered to be a healthy height on that area right after the rosette? I find that when it's too low it feels like the guitar doesn't want to take my thumb (and I have skinny fingers).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 12:18:19

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Measurements (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

What is considered to be a healthy height on that area right after the rosette?

That is indeed very personal. I prefer 8 - 9mm 6th string over soundboard at the rosette and thats what most players find to be comfortable.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 15:57:02

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Measurements (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

anders, i am at my office and not looking at a guitar and am trying to imagine how the string height at the sound hole could be up to 3mm higher than at the bridge. is this due to the top sloping downwards going from the bridge towards the fretboard relative to the widths of the lower and upper bouts?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 17:55:00

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Measurements (in reply to keith)

That and neck angle.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2014 18:31:48

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Measurements (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Keith. I´m sorry, but I cant explain how to make a guitar with a 3mm stringheight difference between the bridge and soundhole. I´ve never been able to make such a crappy setup. But I´ve seen them. It has to do with neckangle and I think a relatively thick fingerboard helps as well.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 7:36:24

yourwhathurts69

Posts: 117
Joined: Sep. 16 2009

RE: Measurements (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I wouldn't necessarily say the set-up has to be crappy. Here's an example of one of my guitars with a string height of 7mm at the saddle and 10mm at the rosette.

It sounds like Andres Marvi does something similar:

http://www.classicguitar.com/vid-marvi.php

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 1:50:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Measurements (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Its a matter of taste, but give a guitar like that to a player and also an identical one with almost parallel strings to soundboard and 90% will prefer the parallel and there are good reasons for that. one is that for every cm or inch you move the right hand the thumb has to adjust to a different stringheight and another is that the golpe superior or capirote you do where the strings are higher, meaning you do easily it with the flesh over the nail instead of the nail itself and thats not nice at all
besides, 7mm at the bridge is ok, but its the limit. If the neck sets a bit more with age, you cant lower without hitting the soundboard when doing picado and also, the breakangle starts getting to low.
You could also turn around the question: Why make a guitar with a 3mm difference in stringheight over respectively the soundboard/bridge and the soundboard/rosette when you can make one with almost parrallel strings to soundboard.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 7:57:20

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Measurements (in reply to Sr. Martins)

String height for the right hand has never mattered much for me--unless it's a classical guitar with really high action there that I am trying to play flamenco on. The only time my right hand touches the golpeador is when I am doing some kind of golpe. Most of the time I'm playing with my hand in the air. And regular golpes with the ring finger (which I do about an inch from the bridge) don't require low action there for me. Martillos (hitting the golpeador above the bass strings first with the back of the middle finger nail and then proceeding to hit the bass strings) are easier with the strings lower, but I do them rarely. But I am building my flamenco guitars with 1/4" high bridges (wood) and little saddle showing above the wood, because that seems to be what people want, or think they should want, now. It's safe to do now that I use carbon-fiber neck reinforcement.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2014 15:05:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Measurements (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

String height for the right hand has never mattered much for me--unless it's a classical guitar with really high action there that I am trying to play flamenco on. The only time my right hand touches the golpeador is when I am doing some kind of golpe. Most of the time I'm playing with my hand in the air. And regular golpes with the ring finger (which I do about an inch from the bridge) don't require low action there for me. Martillos (hitting the golpeador above the bass strings first with the back of the middle finger nail and then proceeding to hit the bass strings) are easier with the strings lower, but I do them rarely. But I am building my flamenco guitars with 1/4" high bridges (wood) and little saddle showing above the wood, because that seems to be what people want, or think they should want, now. It's safe to do now that I use carbon-fiber neck reinforcement.

We all have our ways of playing.
What i was taught by local andalucian guitarists is different from what you write.
Its all about touching the soundboard all the time. Not resting, but being in contact. Thumb in contact when doing rasgueados, doing many golpes when doing thumb strokes. golpes when doing rasgueados and arpeggios etc.
Besides, if you give a good player from here a guitar with a bridge setup more than 8,5mm or so, the huge majority will comment on it and they wont feel comfortable. If the stringheight over the soundboard at the bridge is more than 9mm or so, they will definately comment on it and they wont like it. I used to to work in a shop in Granada, and I´ve seen pro players refuse to even play a not on guitars with to high a setup saying "con un arreglo así, no se puede tocar flamenco". 80 - 90% of the players I´ve met consider stringheight above the soundboard so important that they wont consider the guitars with a to high setup to be acceptable. NEVER MIND the sound.
I´ve lived here since the first guitar I´ve built and the input from players have been the most important source of information. Besides, I´ve played flamenco guitar for more than 10 years and I totally agree with what I have been told.
And trust me, soundwise I would prefer to build with higher setups everywhere, because that way its a lot easyer to make sound, volume and projection. But the game is different. Build low with volume, sound and projection is what its all about.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 14 2014 7:32:28