RE: Flicking versus non-flicking rasgueados

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Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

How does that "flick from the strings" thing works? You flick against the 6th/5th string like if it was the thumb?

Yes and no. You flick from the strings. Look at the videos. They dont really play the 5th and 6th string. Thats why this kind of rasgueados sound lighter and IMHO more elegant and more flamenco than the flick from the thumb.

When I say strenght, I talk about control. In order to have control over your fingers you need some strength. Or am i wrong in this?
When you flick from the thumb, you can build up a lot of power by pushing against the thumb and then let go. Thats why thumb flicking especially from not so good players (like me) can sound so brutish and out of context. Lots of beginners love the sound of a brutal rasgueado. For them its the soul of flamenco. I was there myself. Now its one of the things that I find that can really make flamenco guitar annoying because its so out of the rest of the music.
When flicking from the strings, you cant build up that energy by pushing against the string. The string is simply to soft, so you have to have the power in the fingers to do the snapping and that means strength. The movement of fingers from bend position to straight position is not very natural and not often done, so the muscles are not really very well develloped
Try showing a complete beginner the two different types of rasguados. He/she will always be able to make a lot of noise when flicking from the thumb, but the nonflick(/flick from strings, will sound very dull and muddy.

BTW. you can also flick from inside your palm.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 7:48:30

bolo

Posts: 13
Joined: Jul. 15 2013
From: Valencia, Spain

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Can you recommend any video tutorials for these finger rasgueados?

Watching your videos is humbling to say the least.. and encouraging. Keep em coming :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 9:36:43

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Possibly the wrong kind of commitment to the wrong kind of strength can lead to pain or the feeling that surgical intervention is necessary.

I do genuinely believe that adult males have recourse to more than the strength they need to play guitar on the first day they pick up the instrument and that problems often arise from trying to use more still.

Clarity of sound and clarity of intent and a relaxed yet poised and energised attitude to the instrument are good touchstones. The strength is there already. Focusing on the others may help avoid RSI and diminish arthritis tension and clumsiness.

absolute complete and utter agreement from me!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 11:13:09

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

absolute complete and utter agreement from me!

Thanks Mark !

How about we revive the term 'Finger Independence' to describe the change that Anders is - correctly ! - observing between the beginner and the pro ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 11:20:47

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Lots of beginners love the sound of a brutal rasgueado. For them its the soul of flamenco. I was there myself.

Me too.

It has only been the last couple of years that I've been gradually developing my non-flicked rasgueado (inspired by Anders, Ricardo, Ramzi and others posting about it, thank you). Before I only did flicked, encouraged by too many years playing for dance. My flicked rasgueado has been good for a long time but I have found working on the non-flicked has also further improved my flicked. There is also some middle ground between the two so I am starting to have much more ability for dynamics.

I was also one of those unfortunates who overdid the strength as guitarbuddha mentioned. It is motor-control not strength that I need. In my experience learning how to minimize effort and when to switch muscles off is more important than learning when to switch them on. It's my brain and nervous system that needs training not my hands. Developing the non-flicked rasguedo is helping me learn to let go of unnecessary tension in my hand and whole body and that is better for all techniques.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 15:10:02

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to orsonw)

quote:

I was also one of those unfortunates who overdid the strength as guitarbuddha mentioned. It is motor-control not strength that I need. In my experience learning how to minimize effort and when to switch muscles off is more important than learning when to switch them on. It's my brain and nervous system that needs training not my hands.

yep, me too, completely agree with what you say here

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 16:48:49

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

It is motor-control not strength that I need.

Of course its control that is the most important thing, but you need some strength in order to control....
Well, maybe I´m just having a discussion with myself about the egg and the henn.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 16:50:35

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I still don't get it (I might be a little thick today).

1. No flick at all (free fingers)
2. Flick from the thumb
3. Flick from the string

Iam assuming that to flick from the string you do exactly the same as flicking from the thumb. Something like placing the thumb on the 5th string and flicking the fingers from that muted string WITHOUT playing it.

..or the ideas is to flick from the 4th string (without muting it with the thumb) ending up with those 4 strings played?

Video please?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2014 17:31:01

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

3. Flick from the string

I don't get this either. If someone can make a video, it would be awesome.

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Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 0:13:24

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

IMHO and what my teacher here in Huelva, Andalucia taught, the no flick and the flick from the strings is the same thing. You simply start making the rasguado from the strings instead of the thumb. By doing so, you "release" from the strings and it makes a soft "flick effect"
Both the thumbflick and the free rasguado is done with the thumb on the 6th string. The difference is that you bend the thumb on the thumbflick rag, and keep it straight when doing nonflick. In general you do the non flick on the 1st to 4th string.

A simple practice is to lay your right hand flat on the table and do some rasgueados. That was I was taught to do.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 8:06:24

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

the no flick and the flick from the strings is the same thing. You simply start making the rasguado from the strings instead of the thumb. By doing so, you "release" from the strings and it makes a soft "flick effect"

This is my understanding too and what I have been taught.

To me non-flicked means non thumb flicked but I do push off the strings rather than start mid air. Which string I start from depends on the effect I want, usually 5th or 4th. Similar to planting in argeggio; the finger nail is placed on the string then pushed through. In Spanish the verb to scrape is RASGAR.

Maybe others here know better? That's why I posted Paco Cepero and Paco de Lucia earlier to clarify if they do push (flick) a little off the strings? Anders replies suggest that is what they do so I'm going with that.

Here's Moraito at 2.46 starting going off the strings and then off the thumb to close the phrase.

And the man that probably inspired a generation of thumb flicking rasgueado!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 9:15:36

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Both the thumbflick and the free rasguado is done with the thumb on the 6th string. The difference is that you bend the thumb on the thumbflick rag, and keep it straight when doing nonflick. In general you do the non flick on the 1st to 4th string.

That's a very straight forward explanation and makes total sense to me.
Thank you Anders

Best

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 9:16:01

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

I dramatically reduced my using of flicking or loaded Rasgueados a long time ago. I also almost completely stopped playing rasqueados using the little finger as well. Other than when playing a particular old style bulerias compas strumming pattern, I don't find using the little finger as appealing as i once did.

To develop non flicking rasqueados, I practiced bringing each finger up to the fifth string and allowing it to fall through the strings until straight. Playing one finger at a time and relaxing the hand between fingers falling. After a long period of time, combining the slow practice and lots of general playing, I could hear the sound generated by each finger becoming more and more even. I also found that i had far more control in replicating what i was hearing. The feeling in my hand also became far more relaxed. Developing control and strength in the third finger takes a long time though. But once I had more control, a lot of doorways were opened.

I prefer to think of the fingers falling under their own weight rather than flicking out. Especially when practicing really slowly. Obviously they have to push through the resistance of the strings, so finding the optimal amount of force takes time. Then you have to contend with executing different phrases at various velocities. Some requiring more tension than others to have the desired effect within the compas. Or m a fast and i delayed for example.

What i find hinders progression when incorporating something new into my playing , is having to perform regularly. This often results in resorting back to a way that is not preferable. But i do find that if i keep working on techniques slowly when i can, they eventually replace the old ways. But gigs do slow it down a lot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 10:46:51

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

I guess I was agreeing more about the concept of things taking a long time. Perhaps instead of strength, I would use the word endurance...

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Ramzi, I just watched your study video. I think that what you are playing is really good for endurance, Although i have never required such a long three finger continuous rasqueado.

For me anyway, slower practice was more beneficial. Giving myself the time to consciously relax between strokes helped more for me. I find it amazing how practicing something slowly can result in something very controlled and relaxed at high speed. Even though in the beginning, it can feel like nothing beneficial is happening at all. Picado is the one where tension always tries to creep back in for me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 11:07:44

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

I dramatically reduced my using of flicking or loaded Rasgueados a long time ago. I also almost completely stopped playing rasqueados using the little finger as well. Other than when playing a particular old style bulerias compas strumming pattern, I don't find using the little finger as appealing as i once did.

Thats exactly what happened to me when I played the guitar.

Tomatitos rasgueados are very good and he´s very good at doing thumbflick rasgueados. I do get tired of them after a while though and prefer the subtle style with nonflick. I lifts the beat more in my ears

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 11:38:51

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

That Tomatito video and those rasgueados are what got me into flamenco. I love that "forgot the clutch while shifting gears" sound like in the Virgen hizo una sopa video.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 12:40:40

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

Ramzi, I just watched your study video. I think that what you are playing is really good for endurance, Although i have never required such a long three finger continuous rasqueado.

Surely - the video was just an endurance exercise. I'm not saying one will need to do such a long continuous rasgueado, but the fact that I can do that with flicking & feel completely relaxed & not tired while I cannot with the non-flicking ones means that one is still much easier to do for me than the other.

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Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 13:57:55

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

That Tomatito video and those rasgueados are what got me into flamenco. I love that "forgot the clutch while shifting gears" sound like in the Virgen hizo una sopa video.

Sure. I agree and I still like it when its not done all the time.
But I find it to be very annoying to hear a guitarist accompanying a singer por Tientos or whatever and throw these explosive rasgueados in everywhere. It only shows me that the guy hasnt understood what its about and only wants to show off. Nothing more annoying in flamenco guitar playing than monotounous show off picado and rasgueados.
My teacher told me to learn to do various rasgueados and use them where they go along with the music

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 15:00:32

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

The guitar which one plays also has an effect on this. My old guitar doesn't have great dynamic range and my free rasgueados sound like a tired hand with soft nails brushing the strings. On my new guitar I can play free rasgueados very lightly and the sound easily comes out, even with the old thick strings that I put on.

Yeah, Iam weird but I feel that "new guitar + used old strings = the sound of the guitar". New string sound can last a week so what matters is the sound I'll have on the 3 months after that initial phase.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 15:59:47

Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Tomatito flicking from the thumb @1:30 (twice!)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2014 16:44:37

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hey Kris I love the sound of your slow rasgueo practice.

A video would be awesome or just an indication of how it works.
Do you literally go down to 60 bpm or less, 1 stroke a tick ? or even slower.

Really keen to start practicing some of these slow energy / relax type exercises
and would love some tips.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2014 1:03:53

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Ramzi,

I failed to mention that everything that you are doing in your videos looks fine to me. I hope i didn't come across as negative towards your endurance practice? Just a little joke.

Your playing is sounding great. I also appreciate your openness and sharing over the years here and on you tube. There are not many people out there who are confident enough and who take the time to share so much. It's really great that you do.

johnnefastis. I'm not sure that a video from me would show anything new unfortunately. I believe it would be better to imitate the top pros rather than me. Plus Ramzi's examples are already great study material to copy.

I prefer to practice techniques within a musical and groove context. I'm not a fan of robotic style technique practice. I did my share of it and it wasn't as beneficial as i had hoped. I found it sometimes squared things up a little too much. I find it better to focus on the transitioning from robotic to musical.

I tend to practice rasqueados in context as phrases within a palo, rather than matching a metronome. I slow any section down to where i understand the strokes and fingering in relation to the compas, and then try to relax each stroke/motion.

I look to identify whether i am trying to push or pull the rhythm or perhaps answer a question created by the previous phrase. By establishing a slow but definite groove and looping a section I can then experiment with the subtleties. And figure out what i want it to say. The groove is the most important part though. If it's not groovy and nothing is happening I go slower.

The speed I choose varies depending on how difficult the motion and syncopation feels. Some phrases just don't seem to suit my hands, and even at a very slow tempo i fail to mimic the flow required. These ones i just keep trying to catch. This is the method i find most effective after 20 years playing. Nothing has improved my compas playing and musicality more than looping small sections of music. This is when i am focused.

Other times i just play whatever.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2014 10:21:44

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Thanks Kris,

You are being to humble, your buleria por rondeña is still one of my favorites posted here on the foro. Unfortunately Tomatito, Gerardo are unlikely to slow down much for us mortals. Chicuelo does a good job on his encuentro though. But that clears things up for me. You mean single, half, third, compas variations slowly.... I do lots of that too. I hope I am improving too.

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2014 14:20:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Flicking versus non-flicking ras... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Well, here is Tomatito almost NEVER flicking, and there are lots of rasgueados:

http://youtu.be/W091aGu4m88

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2014 16:29:41