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RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
Most people on here (including myself) are hobbyists who love flamenco, so don't feel insecure.
There are a few professional guitarists and music teachers or professors who contribute on this site also and some hardcore veteran aficionados, but I don't think anyone but a jerk would troll you just for pursuing your curiosity of a genre we all love
That said you'll see some friction here from time to time...but it wouldnt feel legitimately Latin without it
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mark74)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark74
Most people on here (including myself) are hobbyists who love flamenco, so don't feel insecure.
There are a few professional guitarists and music teachers or professors who contribute on this site also and some hardcore veteran aficionados, but I don't think anyone but a jerk would troll you just for pursuing your curiosity of a genre we all love
That said you'll see some friction here from time to time...but it wouldnt feel legitimately Latin without it
Yeah, that's OK. I participate on a climbing forum where trolls are everywhere. I know my stuff there, so for me I can weed them out. Here, though, I'm swimming in dark seas. I have no idea if the surface is calm or not, so thanks for the heads up.
I'm not afraid of friction. In fact, I'm happier knowing folks are taking this seriously. I want to learn. So kudos. Can't wait to see how the next question resolves itself.
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo)
So thats why Montoya gets so much respect?
I havent read much about this era, but it fascinates me. I've actually read a lot more about medieval Al-Andalus than I have about the actual history of flamenco in the 19th and 20th century
Posts: 2008
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Arash)
I'll go with #1 and it is a brilliant put on. I like the bit about guitarists just catching up now, but not there yet. Imagine, the cejilla-the guitar hero game of it's day.......
quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
two possibilities: 1) brilliant ironic post from mark which fooled me with the missing smilies 2) the golden age he is talking about must have been visited by paco using that "back to the future" DeLorean DMC-12 car (of course he didn't take his cejilla with him) ;)
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Where did you gather that from? Never heard it in my freakin life, and also disagree that this was truly the case.
Ricardo
you need to set your irony detectors to "numb"
quote:
are you guys serious or what .....
er.... no
quote:
two possibilities: 1) brilliant ironic post from mark which fooled me with the missing smilies 2) the golden age he is talking about must have been visited by paco using that "back to the future" DeLorean DMC-12 car (of course he didn't take his cejilla with him) ;)
oh yeah, I forgot to post some of these on the end there
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
Well, I got trolled then.
not really, I'm not trying to wind you (or anyone else) up, sort of just playing with the fact that so little is known about that era because there are no recordings and no one wrote about flamenco then, much less wrote flamenco down in notation..... which I even put in the middle of the post.... like, how could I (or anyone else) know all that stuff about an era that no one knows anything about?!
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
Well, I got trolled then.
not really, I'm not trying to wind you (or anyone else) up, sort of just playing with the fact that so little is known about that era because there are no recordings and no one wrote about flamenco then, much less wrote flamenco down in notation..... which I even put in the middle of the post.... like, how could I (or anyone else) know all that stuff about an era that no one knows anything about?!
I don't disagree with that, but there is a sizable part of history without record that we do feel as if we have a grasp on, so it's not impossible that there are some stories passed down.
Your joke seemed quite plausible based on what I've read and seen thus far in various publications / media, as did Howson's suggestion.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
Mark Indigo left out some stuff. It is speculated that the super-flamencos influenced Bach and actually wrote the famous Dm Toccata and Fugue usually attributed to him. Possibly they also wrote the Chaconne, considered by some the greatest piece of music ever composed. Even more impressively, they are known to have (by analyzing period tapestries) to have invented two-handed tapping over a hundred years before Eddie van Halen!
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mark74)
quote:
Mark Indigo left out some stuff. It is speculated that the super-flamencos influenced Bach and actually wrote the famous Dm Toccata and Fugue usually attributed to him. Possibly they also wrote the Chaconne, considered by some the greatest piece of music ever composed. Even more impressively, they are known to have (by analyzing period tapestries) to have invented two-handed tapping over a hundred years before Eddie van Halen!
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
It is speculated that the super-flamencos influenced Bach and actually wrote the famous Dm Toccata and Fugue usually attributed to him. Possibly they also wrote the Chaconne, considered by some the greatest piece of music ever composed.
They didn't write any of it, because they didn't actually read or write, but they used to improvise falsetas in that style way before Bach. Bach actually sent a team of transcribers to Jerez, Cadiz and Seville, who had to wear ludicrous disguises to infiltrate the close knit and highly secretive flamenco clans. They wrote down what they could, and Bach cobbled the bits together and came up with his wholly derivative and, frankly, dumbed down style as a result....
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mark74)
quote:
who had to wear ludicrous disguises to infiltrate the close knit and highly secretive flamenco clans.
they wore greasy mullets and scarves and Cordobes hats with red ribbons, but the fact that they kept showing up places on time started to make people suspicious
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
So, I'm reading The Flamencos of Cadiz Bay right now and so far it's a great read. There's a lot of info packed in here, and I'm finding it to be exactly what I need. I also bought a couple of other books that I'm sure will raise some curiosities, too, so my plan for this thread is for folks to post cultural flamenco related questions that they may have. This site is mostly about musicians and chords and stuff (or so I gather), so hopefully this will help non-musicians find answers to other questions. I'm fully aware that in the early-going I'll be the only one asking.
sorry, I seem to have derailed your thread, what was the second question?
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mark indigo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
sorry, I seem to have derailed your thread, what was the second question?
Heh - no worries. I think I got the answer. Basically I'm reading something different from what the folks here seem to think. The fact that the answer depends on the source suggests that no one really knows (and Howson is pretty clear in suggesting this about Flamenco in general).
I will have more questions to add to the thread going forward. I look forward to the lively discussion.
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
OK, so we hammered the last one to death. Next question seems simple, and all internet searches seem to reveal the same answer except that I have seen a few different variations.
What cities make up the points of the flamenco triangle? It seems all sources I've read include Sevilla and Cadiz. Of course, most also say that Jerez is the other point, but this doesn't really make a lot of sense to me because a lot of flamenco can also be found in Malaga, Moron de la Frontera, and Grenada.
Howson suggests that it's Ronda, which could also form a nice triangle with just Jerez and Moron (which I've also read elsewhere - sorry, trying to find the source but can't at the moment - is more of a triangle of gypsies).
Of course there's the "Muslim Triangle" Cordoba, Granada, and Sevilla.
So OK, the topic here is less what the literature says is the flamenco triangle, but more what you think the flamenco triangle should be, both in terms of original and modern times, and why.
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
Historically, the flamenco triangle is Cádiz-Jerez-Sevilla. Lebrija and Utrera are closely related to Jerez and Sevilla.
Nowadays, the only place that counts for real flamenco is Jerez, while professional flamencos centre on Sevilla and Madrid, because that is where the contracts are made.
That you might find flamenco in other places is irrelevant. And if you think Howson is an authority on flamenco, think again.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
OK, so we hammered the last one to death. Next question seems simple, and all internet searches seem to reveal the same answer except that I have seen a few different variations.
What cities make up the points of the flamenco triangle? It seems all sources I've read include Sevilla and Cadiz. Of course, most also say that Jerez is the other point, but this doesn't really make a lot of sense to me because a lot of flamenco can also be found in Malaga, Moron de la Frontera, and Grenada.
Howson suggests that it's Ronda, which could also form a nice triangle with just Jerez and Moron (which I've also read elsewhere - sorry, trying to find the source but can't at the moment - is more of a triangle of gypsies).
Of course there's the "Muslim Triangle" Cordoba, Granada, and Sevilla.
So OK, the topic here is less what the literature says is the flamenco triangle, but more what you think the flamenco triangle should be, both in terms of original and modern times, and why.
What the cante nerds are talking about is the development of the "important songs"...that being Solea, siguiriya, buleria, cantiñas. That's the "golden triangle" reference as those forms developed in Triana/sevilla, Jerez, and Cadiz. Of course the other towns or regions in Andalucia develped songs, but they are all derivative of one form, FANDANGO....those would be all the "levante" songs, sucha as malagueñas, Granadinas, Taranto, taranta etc all from the mina, ....and the mountain songs like Caña Polo Serrana, are very lyrical like levante songs but simply borrow the compas of Solea or siguiryas. So the nerds find the "core" of cante to be Solea and siguiriya (tona martinetes etc too), all found in that golden triangle.
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Of course the other towns or regions in Andalucia develped songs, but they are all derivative of one form, FANDANGO....those would be all the "levante" songs, sucha as malagueñas, Granadinas, Taranto, taranta etc all from the mina,
Sorry to contradict the great authority here, but I think you're a little bit confuzed. Cantes levantinos - mineros do not include Malaguena nor Granaina. At least it's the 1st time I heard this kind of mixture.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mezzo
quote:
Of course the other towns or regions in Andalucia develped songs, but they are all derivative of one form, FANDANGO....those would be all the "levante" songs, sucha as malagueñas, Granadinas, Taranto, taranta etc all from the mina,
Sorry to contradict the great authority here, but I think you're a little bit confuzed. Cantes levantinos - mineros does not include Malaguena nor Granaina. At least it's the 1st time I heard this kind of mixture.
Yes it does, and they are all pretty much the same form...the melodic details distinguish. If you could reduce em all to one key on the piano it would be easier to hear I guess. The guitar gives so much color...but yes malgueñas and granainias, often coupled together, musically, are same form as the cantes de la mina. Sort of super slow and super ornate elongated versions of fandangos, that make heavy use of the flat 7 in the melody to force the guitar to answer to tonos in a "oh I just gave you the V7 chord with my voice, now YOU give me the I on the guitar", way. Fandango minero, fandango de Lucena a lot like taranto family songs. Hence, in the old days you would hear songs like Malagueña by Chacon accompanied by Montoya in Taranta key, or Cartagenera (cante de la mina) accompanied in the Granaina key.
I guess it would be better to say they evolved out of those rhythmic abandolao/verdiales/Rondeña type songs which are basically slower fandangos too, but used those nice flat 7 intervals in the melody. Only odd thing is the free style thing evolved historically first for these guys than the "fandangos naturales" more based on the huelva form of fandangos (musically simpler without all the sub dominant accidentals). I would have thought the opposite would have happened.
Now a days it's easier for nerds to keep em all separated out by keys for the guitar and such, grouped together by towns or regions etc.
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Yes it does, and they are all pretty much the same form
yes the same form but then why there are so much distinct variations. The same you explained could fit also for Solea or Fandango (with compas) or for Verdiales...There are a lot of specifications going on and just thinking about all the solea variation, why bother to specify de Alcala, de Frijones, de Triana? If you could reduce them to the same key on a piano.
Btw it sounds weird for me to aknowledge that Malaguenas is a cante mineros, but I suppose it's due to my nerd attitude.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Morante)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
Historically, the flamenco triangle is Cádiz-Jerez-Sevilla. Lebrija and Utrera are closely related to Jerez and Sevilla.
Nowadays, the only place that counts for real flamenco is Jerez, while professional flamencos centre on Sevilla and Madrid, because that is where the contracts are made.
That you might find flamenco in other places is irrelevant. And if you think Howson is an authority on flamenco, think again.
I'm not assuming he is (part of the reason I'm posing questions here is to get different opinions), however he does seem to have somewhat of an idea.
But I am curious as to why you don't think I should consider him an authority.
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
OK, so we hammered the last one to death. Next question seems simple, and all internet searches seem to reveal the same answer except that I have seen a few different variations.
What cities make up the points of the flamenco triangle? It seems all sources I've read include Sevilla and Cadiz. Of course, most also say that Jerez is the other point, but this doesn't really make a lot of sense to me because a lot of flamenco can also be found in Malaga, Moron de la Frontera, and Grenada.
Howson suggests that it's Ronda, which could also form a nice triangle with just Jerez and Moron (which I've also read elsewhere - sorry, trying to find the source but can't at the moment - is more of a triangle of gypsies).
Of course there's the "Muslim Triangle" Cordoba, Granada, and Sevilla.
So OK, the topic here is less what the literature says is the flamenco triangle, but more what you think the flamenco triangle should be, both in terms of original and modern times, and why.
What the cante nerds are talking about is the development of the "important songs"...that being Solea, siguiriya, buleria, cantiñas. That's the "golden triangle" reference as those forms developed in Triana/sevilla, Jerez, and Cadiz. Of course the other towns or regions in Andalucia develped songs, but they are all derivative of one form, FANDANGO....those would be all the "levante" songs, sucha as malagueñas, Granadinas, Taranto, taranta etc all from the mina, ....and the mountain songs like Caña Polo Serrana, are very lyrical like levante songs but simply borrow the compas of Solea or siguiryas. So the nerds find the "core" of cante to be Solea and siguiriya (tona martinetes etc too), all found in that golden triangle.
Ricardo
So I've read this, too and have a couple of follow-ups.
I've read that the Levantes comes from the Med coast and the mining communities. Are you saying a song from Cordoba is also a Levante because it doesn't come from the triangle, so to speak? Or are you saying that Levantes are a form of Fandango and Cordoba (?) and Malaga (Malaguenas - to some extent) essentially have their own variations?
And why is fandango so different from the Solearas, Bulieras, Seguiriyas, etc? Is it because fandango really comes from other forms of music and the flamenco fandangos are just adaptations of this?
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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Morante)
quote:
But I am curious as to why you don't think I should consider him an authority.
I knew him.
Zing!
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Morante)
OK.
At the very least the first book I'm on (Flamencos of Cadiz Bay) is a damn good read with interesting observations. I'm into it for sure, grain of salt and all that.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mezzo
quote:
Yes it does, and they are all pretty much the same form
yes the same form but then why there are so much distinct variations. The same you explained could fit also for Solea or Fandango (with compas) or for Verdiales...There are a lot of specifications going on and just thinking about all the solea variation, why bother to specify de Alcala, de Frijones, de Triana? If you could reduce them to the same key on a piano.
Btw it sounds weird for me to aknowledge that Malaguenas is a cante mineros, but I suppose it's due to my nerd attitude.
The variations are in the melody. The challange is to learn the variations and be able to identify and label them. If singers were more creative as before, there could be MORE variations and therefore more forms. INstead singers compose "songs" these days over buleria tangos or rumba rhythm bases....which aficionados don't consider "cante".
Solea all are based on a form. The levante songs all based on a form. I never said malagueñas are cante mineros, but both are under the umbrella of "levante".
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns)
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmburns
OK, so we hammered the last one to death. Next question seems simple, and all internet searches seem to reveal the same answer except that I have seen a few different variations.
What cities make up the points of the flamenco triangle? It seems all sources I've read include Sevilla and Cadiz. Of course, most also say that Jerez is the other point, but this doesn't really make a lot of sense to me because a lot of flamenco can also be found in Malaga, Moron de la Frontera, and Grenada.
Howson suggests that it's Ronda, which could also form a nice triangle with just Jerez and Moron (which I've also read elsewhere - sorry, trying to find the source but can't at the moment - is more of a triangle of gypsies).
Of course there's the "Muslim Triangle" Cordoba, Granada, and Sevilla.
So OK, the topic here is less what the literature says is the flamenco triangle, but more what you think the flamenco triangle should be, both in terms of original and modern times, and why.
What the cante nerds are talking about is the development of the "important songs"...that being Solea, siguiriya, buleria, cantiñas. That's the "golden triangle" reference as those forms developed in Triana/sevilla, Jerez, and Cadiz. Of course the other towns or regions in Andalucia develped songs, but they are all derivative of one form, FANDANGO....those would be all the "levante" songs, sucha as malagueñas, Granadinas, Taranto, taranta etc all from the mina, ....and the mountain songs like Caña Polo Serrana, are very lyrical like levante songs but simply borrow the compas of Solea or siguiryas. So the nerds find the "core" of cante to be Solea and siguiriya (tona martinetes etc too), all found in that golden triangle.
Ricardo
So I've read this, too and have a couple of follow-ups.
I've read that the Levantes comes from the Med coast and the mining communities. Are you saying a song from Cordoba is also a Levante because it doesn't come from the triangle, so to speak? Or are you saying that Levantes are a form of Fandango and Cordoba (?) and Malaga (Malaguenas - to some extent) essentially have their own variations?
And why is fandango so different from the Solearas, Bulieras, Seguiriyas, etc? Is it because fandango really comes from other forms of music and the flamenco fandangos are just adaptations of this?
Cordoba and Moron (for example) are considered guitar towns, so in a snobby way aficionados don't associate any special song or cante to those towns. The exceptions are songs like "Alegria de Cordoba", which is a song that borrows the compas of Alegrias but melodically has nada to do with the Cantiñas family of songs that has a simpler form or structure over which singers can mix and match and improvise letra arrangements. Alegria de Cordoba is a set song with a long letra...very different. But a nice exception.
The fandango de lucena is coming from very close to cordoba geografically, so in a sense yes it is levante from outside cordoba as it also sounds melodically more like Taranto than any fandango from huelva.
The form of fandango is very different than the form of Solea. The form of solea is very different than the form of siguiriyas. The form of Tientos is VERY similar to Solea. Tangos and bulerias too. So you can lump them together. Alegrias form very different than solea, only the compas is similar. Hard to generalize unless we get into specifics of the music and lyrics. Form of siguitirya and martinete and tona are very similar. ETc. That is how they lump things together. Sometimes aficionados use poetry of the letras to organize, but as a guitarist I prefer the music form to categorize.
Fandango in it's purest form comes from Huelva. In fact there are musicians that only perform fandangos there, and those musicians don't consider themselves "flamenco" musicians or singers. Same deal with sevillanas or rumba. So they are outside the flamenco family yet the flamenco musicians embrace those forms. Sort of like Jazz and blues. Jazz is a bigger umbrella, all jazz artists play blues....but are not BLUES musicians. Blues musicians are not Jazz musicians. Same type of distinctions.
The fandangos that evolved into free form (naturales its called) ARE considered flamenco, due to the creators of the unique melodies coming directly from flamenco singers. There is nobody on earth that can sing a good solea or siguiriyas that is NOT considered a cantaor or at least a FLAMENCO artist (cuz dancers and guitarists can sing too). So you can start to see why the golden triangle and solea/siguiriyas are so important.
RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo)
OK, so really flamenco in a "pure" sense doesn't stretch west or north (fandango country, so to speak), so that takes care of Huelva and Cordoba. The fandangos there are more fandango than they are flamenco, even if there are influences on either side, if I get that correctly.
But what does this do for the fandangos to the south and east? I've read that rodena could be older than flamenco and also be a part of flamenco at the same time. Does this mix sort of keep Ronda out of the triangle then? I can imagine Malaga (city) being further removed as a result of this mix.
I get what you said above so no need to rehash, just trying to piece different parts together.
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