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New up and coming builders from the Madrid school?
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: New up and coming builders from ... (in reply to Ricardo)
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I don't know anything about the modern "factories", including those that may make Condes.
But talking to Felix Manzanero, Manuel Contreras Sr., and Paulino Bernabe Sr., Jose Ramirez III was in the shop every day, standing at workbenches criticizing and correcting, and strictly enforcing his design and method of construction. They said that every 1a or 2a guitar was gone over with a fine-tooth comb by him, and tried out for sound and action. They all had tales of what a stern taskmaster Jose III was, and how he was involved in the daily work of selecting materials and supervising the making of instruments. They said he made a few guitars per year himself.
So it was, as Jose III says in his book, more of an "artisan workshop" on the model of the old fashioned guilds than it was a "factory".
Contreras Sr. was seriously ill the last few years of his life, and their workshop was supervised by his son, who also personally made instruments.
As far as I know, Manzanero made all of the first class instruments that came from his shop.
I don't know the extent of Manuel Ramirez' actual involvement in building guitars. Was his shop coat just a prop like Faustino and Mariano Conde's aprons and unused workbenches in the front of the Gravina shop were the last many years of their lives? I don't know.
But I do know I wouldn't pay the high asking prices of the "Contreras" and "Bernabe" factory sourced instruments not built in the workshops actually supervised by the "name" luthiers. They and Ramirez are pretty specific about the fact that they don't build the lesser models, though they are somewhat close-mouthed about who actually does.
RNJ
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Date Aug. 20 2013 18:38:55
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avimuno
Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France
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RE: New up and coming builders from ... (in reply to avimuno)
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quote:
If some professionals continue to say they favor factory guitars over independently made guitars then real independent guitar making will decline for lack of aficion. Which is fine with me because they is what they are asking for. You should get what you ask for.
I hope not... independent guitar making has a vibe, a sort of authenticity, that a factory guitar will never have IMO.... they have soul! But you're right in saying that it might be getting harder and harder for independent guitar makers, since some factories are putting out some very decent guitars.
Ricardo is right when he said that some factories manage to make a guitar that's frighteningly good for a fairly low price (in another thread). He mentioned Sanchis as an example, and I personally cannot disagree with him... I used to have a 1F which was quite simply amazing. That guitar lacked personality but it got the job done, and I was not afraid to take it out at parties, let other people play it etc.
Let's not forget however that in the case of Sanchis, their prices have gone up so fast in the past few years that they are putting themselves in direct competition with artisan luthiers.... they must have their reasons, and at the end of the day if they can raise their prices this much, it means that they are confident of selling their production, and they probably do.
It also seems that a few independent guitar makers are fighting back, building a handmade guitar with all the props of an artisan-made guitar for a price range of around €1,800 (yes, it starts that low... and it's more Conde-like than a €2,500 Sanchis!) to €3,500... which I find pretty amazing! I am not talking about big names here, but younger, not very well known yet, makers. They will probably also raise their prices if they get noticed, but for now if you do your research,you can get a hand made artisan guitar (made from top grade woods, with customized dimensions, and french polished) for the less than a Sanchis F-Extra, and that's pretty amazing news for us players IMO.
This is actually why I started this thread, I'm trying to put a list of independent artisan makers from all the regions of Spain together... I will also expand and include anyone who makes flamenco guitars the old fashioned artisan way from around the world, but I wanna start with Spain. I am not after famous names, but younger luthiers who are only starting to get themselves noticed now.... fingers crossed!
Saludos!
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Date Aug. 21 2013 5:38:42
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: New up and coming builders from ... (in reply to avimuno)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: avimuno
I am not talking about big names here, but younger, not very well known yet, makers. They will probably also raise their prices if they get noticed, but for now if you do your research,you can get a hand made artisan guitar (made from top grade woods, with customized dimensions, and french polished) for the less than a Sanchis F-Extra, and that's pretty amazing news for us players IMO.
I think so too.
Had I known long before of the building talents presented on the foro alone, my "collection" of nylon guitars would very likely be looking different from what it is now.
It quite seems as if the quality and personality that you can get from the builders here will distinctively outperform the average build at comparable expense found in stores.
I can only repeat myself that I deem it a pity how gifted luthiers don´t build up their own and joint platform to chiefly market their output to the benfit of theirs and the players´.
The internet and channeling through a trusted / authentic forum like this one are too good a chance for such hypothetical distribution to not make use of it.
Sure, there will come up little hickups here and there until healthy routine might be developed, but it will definitly supercede traditional structures of limited exposure and inflated slicing anytime.
Personally I see the ( yet open) internet before all as a gift to menkind in diverse ways, including benefit of consumer and decent trade.
Ruphus
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Date Aug. 21 2013 15:47:47
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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 RE: New up and coming builders from ... (in reply to avimuno)
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Hey, love to hear that! 
I know my approach is a bit naive, leaving aside that any thelike start-up will very likely be facing hurdles on the way and bottlenecks ( some of which might typically be not so much of coincidence rather than from kinds of territorial defence ), and that it could potentially strand and leaving behind losses of finances and engagement.
It could even be only a perishing scout for a future start of thirds. Like e.g. it´s been with credit cards, pay-TV or internet trading that failed on first launch and were picked up by following parties for a song from the ruins.
Which is the obligatory consideration mentioning of worst-case scenario that shall not occure.
Wish you the very best for the project, Avi!
- And maybe you could complement with Simon who should provide so much of perfect preconditions, including obvious integrity. Just saying.
( The man still neglects collecting my contribution for Ron´s funeral, despite of reminders; let aside voluntary maintaining of the board & such.)
Thinking of it, there could be so much mutual benefit apart from marketing alone, like holesale purchase of material for builders, or even insurances, shipping agreements, maybe support routines for alikes of Lacey acts or whatdoiknow etc. ... dunno.
Anyway, vamos y best wishes! :O)
Ruphus
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Date Aug. 21 2013 22:08:16
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avimuno
Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France
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RE: New up and coming builders from ... (in reply to avimuno)
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quote:
Hey, love to hear that!
I know my approach is a bit naive, leaving aside that any thelike start-up will very likely be facing hurdles on the way and bottlenecks ( some of which might typically be not so much of coincidence rather than from kinds of territorial defence ), and that it could potentially strand and leaving behind losses of finances and engagement.
It could even be only a perishing scout for a future start of thirds. Like e.g. it´s been with credit cards, pay-TV or internet trading that failed on first launch and were picked up by following parties for a song from the ruins.
Which is the obligatory consideration mentioning of worst-case scenario that shall not occure.
Wish you the very best for the project, Avi!
- And maybe you could complement with Simon who should provide so much of perfect preconditions, including obvious integrity. Just saying.
( The man still neglects collecting my contribution for Ron´s funeral, despite of reminders; let aside voluntary maintaining of the board & such.)
Thinking of it, there could be so much mutual benefit apart from marketing alone, like holesale purchase of material for builders, or even insurances, shipping agreements, maybe support routines for alikes of Lacey acts or whatdoiknow etc. ... dunno.
Anyway, vamos y best wishes! :O)
Ruphus
Thanks for the encouragement Rufus. I do not want to talk too much about it yet since it's only a project and it looks like it might not even come to term at the moment. This idea came when I moved to Paris a couple of years ago. You might be surprised but it's incredibly difficult to find a decent value-for-money artisan flamenco guitar in Paris. All the big shops only sell Sanchis/Bernal/Carillo, and their prices are insane. The reason for such high prices is that rent and charges in Paris are amongst the (if not the) most expensive on Earth. As such, they have to represent guitars that they know will sell... it is almost impossible for them to trust a young luthier and represent them, especially since they also have to invest in a stock.
My idea is to develop a website where each luthier will have a page to talk about himself, his guitars, show pictures/soudclips/videos and contact informations. I will try to position that site for the French market and see how it goes. I do not wish to become a dealer or anything like that, I just love guitars and I'd like to help out some people in France buy a good handmade guitar and get the most possible guitar for their money, as well as get to know some young luthiers.
As such, it will be a platform for a few luthiers to show their work and hopefully get themselves noticed in France (and maybe elsewhere too). My site will allow them to get some exposure and deal directly with the buyers , cutting out any potential middleman, a bit like what a few makers have done on this Foro.
So far, I have 6 luthiers on board... and I'm looking for another 2 maybe.
But as I said, this is still at a very early stage of development... we'll see how things evolve!
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Date Aug. 22 2013 10:16:07
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avimuno
Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France
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RE: New up and coming builders from ... (in reply to avimuno)
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quote:
Hi Avi,
Here is a video from my visit to Anders Eliasson, a luthier from Denmark but living in Andalucia, Spain.
His guitars are true hand build instruments, where he is the only one involved in the production, and this from the wood selection to the final polishing. He believes that this is the best way of controlling the whole process and hence the best way to build a high quality instrument.
During my trip to Spain I tried a lot of guitars build by famous luthiers but not one of them blew me away, until I tried an Anders Eliasson guitar!
Hi Geert,
Thanks for your reply... I know Anders, like everyone here. I have played a cedar top negra he built for Socratis Mastrodimos in Sevilla, really really nice guitar. There's no denying that Anders builds an incredible guitar for the money, and I have in fact tried to buy a guitar from him for a while now, but something always came up unfortunately. Soon maybe... fingers crossed!
Saludos!
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Date Aug. 22 2013 10:21:48
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