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neck issue? body issue?   You are logged in as Guest
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keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

neck issue? body issue? 
in the classified section there is a link to a guitar store selling many new and used guitars. one guitar, a 1981 j. farre' that has some interesting measurements which puzzled me hence this thread. the seller has the height of the saddle at 6mm (i assume this is the height of strings off the top at the saddle) and the height of the low e string at the 12th fret at 4mm. i am not interested in buying the guitar but the specs at the saddle and 12th fret are intriquing and i figure this would be a good learning experience to know what is going on. is there something pathological here? if so, is it the neck? the body?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2013 11:59:54
 
Guitarsid

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 5 2013
From: Maryland USA

RE: neck issue? body issue? (in reply to keith) 
I bet it is just a matter of specifying what these measurements are exactly.
They should always specify what the exact point to point is that is being measured, otherwise one must assume what it may be. Is the 6 mm saddle height measured from the top of the saddle to the top of the bridge? If so then that is a good bit showing and it leaves a lot of room to lower it and the action. If there is 4 mm space from 6th string to the top of fret#12, then you could easily lower that to 2 mm or lower than ever desired.
However, if 6 mm is the height of the saddle top from the guitar top, then that is not acceptable IMO and would suspect a very bad (shallow or low) neck angle to body.
The neck angle is always the starting point to me and critical, I always want to know the height that is measured when a straight edge is laid flat down the middle of the fingerboard, with the strings tuned to concert pitch, extended all the way to the bridge, and the resulting gap seen at the bridge, which is measured from the guitar top to the straightedge bottom. But this is not ever normally reported by sellers, such as on ebay. Next most important thing I want to know is the relief in the neck of the guitar, tuned to concert pitch, especially in any vintage guitar. We have no way of knowing about what conditions old guitars were subjected to during their life, such as long term temperature/humidity exposures. All things considered, examination of the guitar in person is always so much better than reading a seller's description.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2013 12:31:05
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: neck issue? body issue? (in reply to Guitarsid) 
guitarsid--i looked at 3 other guitars and the measurements were (saddle/12th fret) 8mm/2.6mm; 7.5mm/3.0mm and 8mm/3.0mm. my suspicion is the saddle height means string off the top height as the above measurements seem to be within the "flamenco range". there is a 2011 conde with a saddle height of 9 mm and 12th fret action of 3mm. you are correct, the lack of specificity of what is "saddle height" is not good for a seller.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2013 14:19:56
 
Guitarsid

Posts: 52
Joined: Aug. 5 2013
From: Maryland USA

RE: neck issue? body issue? (in reply to keith) 
I think you are correct, that is the most common measurement, so if it is string height of 6mm and string to fret 12 height of 4 mm, then to get to 3 mm string height at fret 12, you would need to take off at least 2 mm from the string height. This leaves only 4 mm string height which is too low and both playing and sound would suffer, imo. If the saddle is barely peeking over the bridge slot then it may not even be possible to lower the saddle at all. If it even has 2 mm showing, then that means it would have to have a bridge height of only 4 mm, which is too low, again, imo. The strings need some ramping coming out of the holes, the less the string pressure on the saddle the more the sound starts to suffer. I think it sounds like some neck adjusting may be needed and that could possibly be done with heat resetting or fingerboard planing.
This always goes back to the root cause, which is either the neck angle is now too low, or the top is bellying and sinking down in front of the bridge, or both.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2013 14:31:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14832
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: neck issue? body issue? (in reply to keith) 
In other words, the bone was probably lowered to it's lower limits after the neck came forward. It is probably playable as is but not adjustable, and intonation might be a problem too. I for one am never scared about a low bridge, I greatly prefer that to a super easy action over fingerboard and high bridge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 20 2013 15:00:32
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: neck issue? body issue? (in reply to Ricardo) 
The 2003 Reyes I inspected was set at 11 mm at the bridge but clean to a thicker fingerboard which had about 3 mm string height at the 12th fret.

I think this was Reyes way of compensating neck pull up later with age. There was plenty of room to lower the saddle, and enough thickness on the board to approach a reset without having to remove the fingerboard for alteration.

I understand this technique as it carries room for adjustments that don't tax the guitar for an expensive repair. And right after I took the measurements off this particular guitar, Chris Kamen lowered the action to be right at the mark for good flamenco technique.

I think this is the reason some guitars are built with higher actions at the bridge, as they are adjusted down with age; sometimes very soon after they are built, depending on neck pull up. And this discounts neck reinforcement, like an added ebony strip, or carbon reinforcement inside the neck, where the necks hardly move at all.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 22 2013 13:20:35
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14832
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: neck issue? body issue? (in reply to Tom Blackshear) 
quote:

I think this is the reason some guitars are built with higher actions at the bridge, as they are adjusted down with age; sometimes very soon after they are built, depending on neck pull up. And this discounts neck reinforcement, like an added ebony strip, or carbon reinforcement inside the neck, where the necks hardly move at all.


Also it makes the guitar louder, which I think is the main thing. I think it's a silly practice myself. I am always very impressed when I see a new guitar with a super low bridge and decent action over the fingerboard. I don't care at all about volume. Keep em like this please luthiers , thanks!!! If over time the neck comes up, well that's the owners fault not the luthier's IMO.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 22 2013 15:44:55
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