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Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
quote:
However this is not a forum for immigration policy. My reference was merely for the purpose of explaining the depths of emotional sadness I see people in.
I couldn't agree more La Vaquera, which is why I was a bit surprised to see your gratuitous comment about US immigration policy as being harsh, when you could have simply pointed out that your clients suffer emotional sadness as a result of their immigration status. Such a comment represents an opinion and a value judgment, and it invites comments from others who may agree or disagree.
In any case, there is a place on the Foro in which to discuss such topics, and that is the "Off Topic" section, where everything except flamenco is discussed. We have had discussions on everything: food, literature, Black Holes in the Cosmos, science vs. faith, the conquest of Spain by the Moors and the relatively enlightened culture of Al Andalus under the Caliphate of Cordoba, and a host of other topics. US immigration policy and its discontents would fit right in. I'm not suggesting we carry on with the topic, but I do wish to point out that if you ever want to bring up something unrelated to flamenco, the "Off Topic" section beckons.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 41
Joined: Jun. 2 2013
From: South East USA for now
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
However this is not a forum for immigration policy. My reference was merely for the purpose of explaining the depths of emotional sadness I see people in.
I couldn't agree more La Vaquera, which is why I was a bit surprised to see your gratuitous comment about US immigration policy as being harsh, when you could have simply pointed out that your clients suffer emotional sadness as a result of their immigration status. Such a comment represents an opinion and a value judgment, and it invites comments from others who may agree or disagree.
In any case, there is a place on the Foro in which to discuss such topics, and that is the "Off Topic" section, where everything except flamenco is discussed. We have had discussions on everything: food, literature, Black Holes in the Cosmos, science vs. faith, the conquest of Spain by the Moors and the relatively enlightened culture of Al Andalus under the Caliphate of Cordoba, and a host of other topics. US immigration policy and its discontents would fit right in. I'm not suggesting we carry on with the topic, but I do wish to point out that if you ever want to bring up something unrelated to flamenco, the "Off Topic" section beckons.
Cheers,
Bill
Please quit being so competitive Bill. For most of us this is a place to enjoy a hobby, not conduct adversarial relationships. I get enough of that with the legal profession. If you crave adversary, please leave me alone and go somewhere else. I am just trying to enjoy my time on this board. I practically cry on a daily basis because of my profession as a removal defense attorney, not because I am weak, but because I am human and have a heart. Life is harsh and that's what Flamenco expresses. Please let me escape this harshness instead of adding to it. Please.
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to Morante)
quote:
Real flamenco is a good cantaor. In fact a good cantaor can sing a cancion, a rumba or a sevillanas amd make it flamenco. A bad cantaor is anti-flamenco. The rest is of no account. And "genious" is spelt "genius".
This seems like the best idea yet.
(Although spelt is spelled, spelled. However only Amerika. Outside the US it can be spelt with the irregular past participle, spelt. We know Spelt as the name of a kind of grain. Interesting. "He was writing about spelt and in his article he spelt spelt correctly.")
The thing that is harsh about US immigration policy is that in some cases it unfairly breaks up families, forcing some to go to Mexico or points south and some to stay in the US, literally trapped. I have witnessed this over and over and it is difficult.
However that should probably go to the Off Topic section.
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
quote:
Please quit being so competitive Bill. For most of us this is a place to enjoy a hobby, not conduct adversarial relationships. I get enough of that with the legal profession. If you crave adversary, please leave me alone and go somewhere else. I am just trying to enjoy my time on this board. I practically cry on a daily basis because of my profession as a removal defense attorney, not because I am weak, but because I am human and have a heart. Life is harsh and that's what Flamenco expresses. Please let me escape this harshness instead of adding to it. Please.
OLEEEE TU *Clapping* (like this post!!) and you figured him out within 3 days here of being on the foro !
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to BarkellWH)
how about this: it is flamenco if it follows the rules and themes of a given compas? as to flamenco is a gitano thing--just remember pdl is not a gitano.
how about this: it is flamenco if it follows the rules and themes of a given compas? as to flamenco is a gitano thing--just remember pdl is not a gitano.
Bill is a good guy, he always responds and keeps things within "the ring"--that is, within the bounds of civil debate. He loves flamenco and is supportive of literature and music. He is also brave to voice his opinions that are going to be against the grain for artist-musician types. One should also note that he has a rather vast amount of experience and travel and professional, perhaps even top-secret knowledge of international issues.
That being said, the next time he disagrees with "the Man" will be the first time! :)
Bill is a good guy, he always responds and keeps things within "the ring"--that is, within the bounds of civil debate. He loves flamenco and is supportive of literature and music. He is also brave to voice his opinions that are going to be against the grain for artist-musician types. One should also note that he has a rather vast amount of experience and travel and professional, perhaps even top-secret knowledge of international issues.
That being said, the next time he disagrees with "the Man" will be the first time! :)
I have lots of friends and family with "top secret" security clearances. It does not mean much to me on a place I go to relieve stress from all that brouhaha. I am friends/acquaintances with all sorts of government types (FBI, ICE, ect). I suppose it is what an individual values in any particular setting. If I wanted "men in black" types I don't come to a flamenco board for that. I have all sorts of opinions too, but it's not "brave" to voice them in this forum. It is rude. Give me your opinion about music, not foreign policy. I am foreign policied to death. Immigration lawyers watch "state department and foreign services department types" a lot to get a feel as to how our cases are going. I have to deal with them enough professionally. We must learn to close the office door behind us when we go home for the evening. Not interested in doing it as a hobby as well. I came to this board to have Flamenco as a hobby.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
I hear you! I'm not suggesting any kind of excessive deference to the people who sit on the walls or play with guns. Anyway--our moderator will no doubt move this thread to the "off-topic" forum before long. You might want to avoid the "off-topic" forum, as discussions tend to get heated there. We have had wars over Hiroshima, "modern" art, and most recently, lard, over there. The luthier section is even worse!
My take on the thread topic: "Real" flamenco, like all music, is something that is best done and experienced and not talked about. People who are quick to put up borders and walls hurt themselves the most in their attempt to define the music and control and exclude others. They're creating "mind-forged manacles" that simply limit their own possibilities. Any music that gives people joy or uplift is to be respected. The boundaries between different forms of music, like the definitions of words and the way societies use language, are fluid and ever-changing.
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
quote:
Please quit being so competitive Bill. For most of us this is a place to enjoy a hobby, not conduct adversarial relationships.
I have been a member of the Foro for several years, La Vaquera, and certainly don't need a lecture on what it is about from someone who just joined three days ago. You originally brought up a sensitive subject having nothing to do with flamenco, and I commented on it. It was a comment, nothing more, and it was not meant to create an "adversarial relationship." If you are so sensitive that that comment set you off, believe me, you are in for a surprise because members comment and challenge positions regularly on everything from flamenco to "Off Topic" subjects on the Foro. As long as it is done with grace and civility, that is one of the purposes of the Foro, to provide a venue where various opinions and viewpoints can be expressed.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Speaking as an immigrant who went through a painful and arduous process lasting 10 years and whose ultimate resolution was to marry an American citizen, I would take issue with your comment. The United States' legal immigration is most certainly "harsh".
There are always exceptions, Schroomy, and your experience seems to be one of them. But the average process for legal immigration of family members of both US citizens and Permanent Residents is pretty straightforward.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
OLEEEE TU *Clapping* (like this post!!) and you figured him out within 3 days here of being on the foro !
As usual, Kudo, you add nothing to the topic but reveal a lot about yourself.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
quote:
I have all sorts of opinions too, but it's not "brave" to voice them in this forum.
...except when it comes to your originally-voiced opinion on US immigration policy. You're the one who brought it up, La Vaquera, thus seemingly violating your own quote cited above.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 41
Joined: Jun. 2 2013
From: South East USA for now
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Please quit being so competitive Bill. For most of us this is a place to enjoy a hobby, not conduct adversarial relationships.
I have been a member of the Foro for several years, La Vaquera, and certainly don't need a lecture on what it is about from someone who just joined three days ago. You originally brought up a sensitive subject having nothing to do with flamenco, and I commented on it. It was a comment, nothing more, and it was not meant to create an "adversarial relationship." If you are so sensitive that that comment set you off, believe me, you are in for a surprise because members comment and challenge positions regularly on everything from flamenco to "Off Topic" subjects on the Foro. As long as it is done with grace and civility, that is one of the purposes of the Foro, to provide a venue where various opinions and viewpoints can be expressed.
Cheers,
Bill
I am simply seeking a hobby, Bill. And momentary escape from the very thing you are trying to discuss with me. If you want to discuss things like that go to the Off Topic place. I won't discuss it with you there, either. I would rather discuss with my legislator where my efforts have the biggest bang for the buck. Yes, I get a semi-private audience.
I would, however, enjoy reading your views off list altogether, as you actually sound like an interesting and knowledgeable kind of guy. I just don't wanna discuss it here. And I probably won't share many of my views back at you. I don't like "debate" because I am tired.
So you can say what you want to me because you've been a member longer? Yahla Hooey! [just trying to make you smile with the way I said the last one. I am sure you know the phrase.]
"Real" flamenco, like all music, is something that is best done and experienced and not talked about. People who are quick to put up borders and walls hurt themselves the most in their attempt to define the music and control and exclude others. They're creating "mind-forged manacles" that simply limit their own possibilities. Any music that gives people joy or uplift is to be respected. The boundaries between different forms of music, like the definitions of words and the way societies use language, are fluid and ever-changing.
Now back to the topic of what or who is "real" flamenco and what or who is not. I agree with your above cited statement, Miguel. I think we talk this thing to death, and we do it over and over again. Think of the past discussions on "traditional" flamenco vs. "nuevo" flamenco, and what constitutes "modern" flamenco. I'm as guilty of it as the next person, basically in defense of what I consider to be the more "traditional" flamenco (best represented today by the guitarista Paco Pena). There are clearly genres that are not flamenco, but I would say they do not even merit entry into the discussion. Once we get into the realm of reasonable boundaries of flamenco (compas, cante, etc.) it is enough to enjoy it and not talk it to death.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
quote:
I am simply seeking a hobby, Bill.
With our little dust-up behind us, La Vaquera, what is your interest in flamenco? When you say it is a hobby, do you play guitar? Dance? Just enjoy experiencing the art form? Tie it together with a love for Spain?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
quote:
You go first, Mr. B. Then I will tell. Look at my posting on another thread and it will help.
In 1960, when I was 17, my parents gave me a guitar as a gift. This was at the height of the early 60s folk boom (Kingston Trio, Peter, Paul and Mary, Joan Baez, and a host of others). I learned the standard three and four chord progressions, with which one could sing 150 or more folk songs at parties (what were then called "hootenannies") and other get-togethers. At the same time, I was introduced to flamenco via the vinyl albums of the guitarist Carlos Montoya (and a little later Sabicas) and the Jose Greco dance group that one would occasionally see on TV. I grew to love flamenco, although I certainly didn't know much about it. And at that time I had no idea about the central importance of cante. With me, it was all a sort of crude appreciation of flamenco guitar and dance.
Fast forward many years covering a career that involved assignments living and working in quite a few countries, primarily in Maritime Southeast Asia, but also in Latin America and Washington, DC. During that time I shipped my guitar with me everywhere but never advanced. Same stuff I was playing at 17. But I also continued my love for flamenco (crude though my understanding of it was).
After retiring (though still keeping my hand in the business with occasional temporary assignments abroad as a consultant to the U.S. State Department and a Defense Department contractor), I decided I wanted to really bear down and learn flamenco guitar. I approached a well-known flamenco guitarist in Washington, DC, Paco de Malaga, and asked if he would take me on. He agreed, and for several years now I have been one of his students. He has become a very good friend, as well as my flamenco guru, and through Paco I have not only learned a great deal on the guitar (though I will never reach the level of many on the Foro), I also have learned a great deal about the origins of flamenco and the great guitarists and cantaors of earlier eras. Perhaps the most important nugget I picked up from Paco early on was the importance to, in fact the heart of, flamenco: Cante.
Over to you.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
My thoughts about the original question. The only thing I can be fairly certain of is that flamenco has changed and is changing – it is a living art form. I don’t want “purity police” to decide what is real flamenco and what is not. I want flamenco to remain alive and not to be set in aspic like some fossilised folk art (sorry for mixed metaphors). Fortunately flamenco and flamenco artists are relatively uncontrollable!
My thoughts about the original question. The only thing I can be fairly certain of is that flamenco has changed and is changing – it is a living art form. I don’t want “purity police” to decide what is real flamenco and what is not. I want flamenco to remain alive and not to be set in aspic like some fossilised folk art (sorry for mixed metaphors). Fortunately flamenco and flamenco artists are relatively uncontrollable!
Interesting point.
This is from an interview in 1982 with Sabicas ,by our very own Paul Magnussen.
'Your styles of playing are quite different, though. Yes, at that time the guitar, as much as singing and dancing, was very personal. Any guitarist you heard, you could always identify his individual style - they were all different from each other. My playing had no similarity to anybody else's, I just started playing my own way; and that's how I continue, making up my own material and doing my own thing.
Did you play as a soloist at that time? Yes, I was the first to play solo guitar. I was a boy when I started, but I saw the possibilities and knew that was what I wanted to do. They treated me as rather a joke at first, because flamenco guitar had never been played that way before, but I didn't care what they said: I was only nine or ten, but I kept at it. Nowadays as you can see everyone wants to play solo.'
Every once in a while, I get bored and browse the guitar forums. I don't know WHY I click on threads like this. They invariably degenerate into people stating their opinions on ART as if they were facts of hard science and being condescending to those of other opinions.
The guitar has been central to my life of 45 years. I've studied, taught and played most styles/genres. I pretty much LOVE listening to and playing it all. I'm a jack of many, master of few/none. I am what I am. I do it for the pure joy it's given me and for the love of it. I do it to bring joy to others and expose some of them to some flavors/styles they may not have experienced before. I am no traditionalist. I love specific traditions and am glad that there are still those around to keep them alive. But I refuse to live my life boxed-in to one small style and remain true ONLY to that style. I don't claim to be a flamenco puro at my many gigs. In fact, I go out of my way to say that most of what I play is NOT "real flamenco". I don't try to pass myself off as someone I am not. But I DO and I WILL play everything I want to play, without regard to any anonymous internet "experts" or "authorities" who might scoff at what I play. Surely many of those self-appointed guardians of all things flamenco are superior flamenco players to me. And just as surely... many of them are unable to support their strong opinions with a similar degree of talent in the actual art form they claim to be such experts on. But it matters not... because I'll keep on playing whatever it is that I play... and loving every minute of it.
Btw... my post was "inspired" by Kudo's assertion that those who do not make HIS opinion of traditional flamenco are only "making money". Last Saturday I got a last-minute call to backup one of the few locals with any flamenco dance experience at a local fundraiser for the historical building you see behind me. We did GK's Bamboleo, a Cani, Fandango, and a few of my own compositions. She (Cecilia) used the opportunity to educate the crowd about classical and flamenco dance, castanets, etc... I used the opportunity to ENJOY the moment. Neither of us made a dime.
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RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
As usual, Kudo, you add nothing to the topic but reveal a lot about yourself.
Cheers,
you speak as if you DO add something to a topic.... , whenever US or politics or history is mentioned, you jump on it , otherwise you remain like a statue ! what have you contributed to flamenco here?maybe you do talk about flamenco a bit here and there, but i have not seen a single video/audio of you playing ! you are just too busy talking 95% about non-flamenco topics
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