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Posts: 41
Joined: Jun. 2 2013
From: South East USA for now
Who is"real" flamenco/ who...
FOOD FOR THOUGHT:
I hope this doesn't get "too heated" of a discussion.
I have heard many people refer to Gipsy Kings as being Flamenco. In the SE U.S.A. their CDs are found in the Flamenco listing for the record store. They are a "gateway" band which has brought otherwise unknowing people to learn that the more traditional Flamenco even exists. Same with Manitos de Plata. I personally love, love, love hearing Jose Reyes sing "Dime Dime", and would you consider this to be authentic flamenco? Why or why not? Here is another guy I like: Capullo de Jerez. Would you consider his singing to be authentic flamenco?
Posts: 1956
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
this will definitely become a heated discussion, however, it's a fact that gipsy kings are not flamenco, nor are they claiming to be, they're rumberos, and use elements of flamenco in their music...on the other hand, capullo is a well known pure flamenco singer... i'm not going to give an answer to the "why" question, there have been many similar discussions in the past...
Posts: 41
Joined: Jun. 2 2013
From: South East USA for now
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)
Sorry, if this is redundant. I am new to this forum and did not see any prior discussion. I tried the search tool but did not get results for this question. If you wish to put a link to a previous forum I would be most grateful, so no one has to revisit the discussion.
Posts: 1956
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
it's not your fault of course... but this is one topic that is especially sensitive on this forum, and there have been some unpleasant conversations as well, it's better to find the old topics :)
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
Well I guess you could ask then if rumba is flamenco as the gypsy kings are pretty much about that. I think rumba flamenca is half flamenco, half cuban music which is nice.
I like anything that makes noise, with emotions and a beat. It's all good to me. If more people weren't drawn into it by the "pop" brother and sister groups the art form would die. I know many who were drawn in by Manitas, the Buliardos, and the Reyes--not to even mention the street performers. This is too wonderful an art form to be left to mainly academia. I cannot imagine the earlier performers even having the privilege of knowing how to read music. That was for the upper class "classical" performers and composers, who had money. The salt-of-the-earth people made art with the resources they had and it became Flamenco. The pain of life being treated like the can in a kick-the-can game. (Not sure if non-Americans will get my analogy to the child's game.) The harshness of it all must be gotten out through art, and it became the gispy soul. Art is living organism. Look at how science defines a living organism. It is sloughing off old cells and making new ones, living breathing, changing, and is a miracle.
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to Aretium)
Personally I don' t think it matters...what you call it or even deserves the effort to argue about who sees what as what ...whatever helps you find it quicker in your computer...i got my flamenco music in my computer organized this way :
1st one big general folder called FLAMENCO
inside i got it broken down into other folders :
Cante (Cante dominated albums) Guitar (Guitar dominated albums) Light Flamenco ,( has everything, gipsy kings, ketama, ojos de brujo, radio tariffa, rumba albums, sevillanas compilations etc..) Compas (solo compas, ritmo flamenco etc..) Tab/Books
dont ask me why...its just how i decided that i would best remember whats where
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
try again and again the search function on the site first before making a new topic..
rumba stuff is not considered real flamenco
instead I think theres 3 types of real flamenco you see : there is a flamenco, there is a flamenco artist and there are those who DO real flamenco (mostly foreigners).
most (if not all) of what you will find on the internet are mostly the last 2 types.
there are those who do fake flamenco/spanish-like music/ rumba stuff who are known to the western world. they make money, nothing more
try again and again the search function on the site first before making a new topic..
rumba stuff is not considered real flamenco
instead I think theres 3 types of real flamenco you see : there is a flamenco, there is a flamenco artist and there are those who DO real flamenco (mostly foreigners).
most (if not all) of what you will find on the internet are mostly the last 2 types.
there are those who do fake flamenco/spanish-like music/ rumba stuff who are known to the western world. they make money, nothing more
Wow, these rumba threads always bring out the geniouses.
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
quote:
Wow, these rumba threads always bring out the geniouses.
im not a genious , nor did i ever claim to be one.. i say my opinion and what i think, I have seen many people who agree on that for rumbas.. if you dont agree,thats fine but no need for insulting..
Posts: 1812
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
There’s an extended discussion of this topic in a book I was just sent for review, Flamenco Music and National Identity in Spain by William Washabaugh (who is an anthropologist).
He proposes a continuum. At one end is Juan Talega with Eduardo de la Malena on guitar. Everyone agrees this is utterly flamenco. I forget whom he has at the other end; I suppose Ottmar Liebert et al. serve as well as any.
(If rigorous analysis is to be the order of the day, I would be inclined to use fuzzy logic, although this doesn’t seem to occur to anyone else. But I’m not convinced the continuum’s one-dimensional — there could be multiple variables involved.)
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
Real flamenco is a good cantaor. In fact a good cantaor can sing a cancion, a rumba or a sevillanas amd make it flamenco. A bad cantaor is anti-flamenco. The rest is of no account. And "genious" is spelt "genius".
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen
I would be inclined to use fuzzy logic, although this doesn’t seem to occur to anyone else.
Why should it occur to anyone else that you might be inclined to use fuzzy logic ?
Your chosen book 'Flamenco Music and National Identity in Spain by William Washabaugh (who is an anthropologist).' May seem appropriate to you because you are familiar with it.
However 'World Music and Cultural Appropriation' may be more germane in this instance (it is a long standing field of study in sociology).
Posts: 41
Joined: Jun. 2 2013
From: South East USA for now
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
[/quote]
However 'World Music and Cultural Appropriation' may be more germane in this instance (it is a long standing field of study in sociology). [/quote]
Guitarbudda: You mentions something interesting. I just now learned a new term. I had not heard of Cultural Appropriation until now. (Sorry...I am an immigration lawyer, not an anthropologist.) It seems to fit, when considering that just about anything with rasgueado is called Flamenco in the U.S.A. I found a book called Flamenco: Conflicting Histories of the Dance . by Michelle Heffner Hayse "Anxious traditionalists fear that the current popularity of flamenco in a global market threatens to eradicate its 'orthodox' roots. [...] In order to save flamenco from extinction, by those authority must it be 'rescued' from its practitioners? and, what are the cultural and economic implications of demystifying flamenco? Flamenco has a long history of upper-class patronage and exploitation... It becomes increasingly difficult to discuss the 'cultural appropriation' of flamenco when some respected practitioners sand scholars of the art come from outside Spain, from countries such as Japan and the United States." I can see how Cultural Appropriation is at the same time a blessing and a curse. I thought this article was interesting: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/16/world/europe/flamencos-foreign-saviors.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 Flamenco’s Foreign Saviors
My Spanish speaking teenage clients, used to Mexican pop music, enjoy the Gipsy Kings music on the long rides to out-of-town immigration court. They experience much of the same stigma as the gypsies seemed to have felt. If I can relieve some of their anxiety by perky little tunes, it helps. They are well worth the money I spent on the CD. It is a good introduction to the kids, for expression of emotion through music as done in traditional flamenco. This genre seems to fit with the tragedies this population experiences with families being broken by harsh immigration policies of the USA, plus it is in a language they are more familiar with than English. Their indigenous cultures get denied and erased even in their own countries, as Spanish culture came into Central America to conquer the Mayans, who are the present displaced populations in the Americas. As for traditional flamenco, I play those CDs in my own time.
Posts: 3497
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
quote:
It is a good introduction to the kids, for expression of emotion through music as done in traditional flamenco. This genre seems to fit with the tragedies this population experiences with families being broken by harsh immigration policies of the USA, plus it is in a language they are more familiar with than English. Their indigenous cultures get denied and erased even in their own countries, as Spanish culture came into Central America to conquer the Mayans
It is interesting that you extoll the virtues of traditional flamenco (a Spanish art form) as an expression of emotion that is valuable to your clients, while seemingly condemning Spanish culture as conquering the Maya in Central America. Are your clients Maya? Are they Mexican? It hardly matters, as the Spanish conquered both, yet the Spanish have much to offer in terms of culture and music, in this case flamenco. And if the Spanish cultural context fits in a niche for your clients, so be it.
I would take issue with your characterization of immigration policies of the US as "harsh." The United States has one of the most liberal legal immigration policies of any nation. US immigration policy is primarily based on family unification, while most of the world's immigration policies--Canada, Australia, the United Kingdom, and many others--are employment-based, i.e., what is in the best interest of the country of intake. I believe you are referring to illegal immigration when you speak of "harsh," but it has always been one of the signature elements of national sovereignty for a country to determine who to accept as immigrants. There is a big difference between legal and illegal immigration.
And when you describe US policy toward illegal immigrants as "harsh," harsh compared to what? Do you know how Mexico handles illegal immigrants? Do you know what happens if illegals are caught in Honduras? Germany? France? Japan? Turkey? Believe me, US policy toward illegals is very benign compared to much of the world. And we will eventually have another program to legalize our illegal population, just as we did in 1986. Official US immigration policy since 1965 has been anything but "harsh." The US takes in about one million legal immigrants annually. That is a pretty generous immigration policy. And we are working to eventually resolve our illegal population problem as well.
Cheers,
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to LaVaquera)
LaVaquera, I only know one immigration lawyer, and even though we're in Phoenix, he mostly deals with rich Canadians! Sounds like you and he have quite different clientele.
Posts: 41
Joined: Jun. 2 2013
From: South East USA for now
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to BarkellWH)
To Bill, aka BarkellWH:
Oh, heck yes. I definitely call the US immigration policy harsh. From top to bottom. However this is not a forum for immigration policy. My reference was merely for the purpose of explaining the depths of emotional sadness I see people in. I ask that further discussion about immigration policy be directed through off-list messaging, to keep our listmates from getting frustrated at the two of us. I could go on for many paragraphs about it, but the point that was making when mentioning it is that these kids are going through a lot of mental and emotional pain that I have to try to deal with somehow. Families are being unfairly torn apart, and nothing else can be said about it except that it is emotionally wrenching. I see a lot of comparison to how the Romas were treated historically. All I was trying to say is that music helps soothes their mood for a few moments.
It is unrealistic to think that just because I enjoy something that came out of Spanish culture that I cannot criticize any part of Spain or its history. That is not criticizing all of Spanish culture. Historically, when Spain's Ferdinand and Isabella were financing convoys to the New World, they were also financing Torquemada, the late 15th-century Spanish Dominican friar and the first Grand Inquisitor in Spain. It was Spain's inquisition that brought the persecution of the Moors, Jews and Gitano. Ferdinand and Isabella, in 1499, initiated a long stream of anti-Gypsy legislation that lasted until Charles III’s reign in 1783. The sorrows from the Spanish Inquisition helped shaped the diversity from whence came Flemenco culture. This is a culture worth celebrating because of the universality of suffering as part of the human condition.
LaVaquera, I only know one immigration lawyer, and even though we're in Phoenix, he mostly deals with rich Canadians! Sounds like you and he have quite different clientele.
Yes, Miquel, I don't serve rich people. I have too much of a heart for my own good, but I get by. I see so many comparisons of the "refugees" of Central America to the migration of the Gitanos. I find the history of human migrations very interesting. I suppose that is what drew me to immigration law. I am not trying to push any agenda... I am just noticing how universal the human condition is. That same human condition that shaped the Flemenco culture.
Ironically, the Roma Gitanos were foreigners (illegal aliens), but today their culture is called "traditional Spain". These "foreigners" brought something so beautiful with them.
RE: Who is"real" flamenco/... (in reply to bursche)
quote:
Flamenco is basically everything gitanos do in their spare time.
You mean when they are not playing flamenco ja jajaja. I once saw a great gitano guitarist sleep in an electric massage chair after a gig, it was the most flamenco use that chair ever got.
You can stand at the bar and eat a tapa in way that is flamenco or you can just stand there and eat a tapa. But when a great gitano artist eats a tapa it's ten times more flamenco than the average Jose or Esteban eating a tapa. These things can't be written down.
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