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I often see references to these 'double-body' guitars and wonder what are the 'real' advantages of double body construction for a flamenco guitar?
I read claims that they produce more volume, sustain, etc. etc. and have more "presence". (???) (Most of which sounds more like desirable characteristics for a classical guitar?)
From a builder's standpoint, what extra work/skill is involved in making a double body? Are they much more difficult to build?
And are they significantly heavier than a regular flamenco. Do they have any negatives for a player?
And finally; do they really sound and play very different from a single body instrument?
There is a lot of extra time and work involved in that design. Think of the bindings on the top, just one of the many extra details involved. John's prices are very very reasonable, its gotta be a passion thing as to why he does it.
Tom deals in guitars, and speaks very highly of Shelton/Farretta guitars so you could always ask him about them also. Much like the caramilk secret, I hope he doesn't divulge how he does it; more fun to try and figure it out.
I often see references to these 'double-body' guitars and wonder what are the 'real' advantages of double body construction for a flamenco guitar?
I read claims that they produce more volume, sustain, etc. etc. and have more "presence". (???) (Most of which sounds more like desirable characteristics for a classical guitar?)
From a builder's standpoint, what extra work/skill is involved in making a double body? Are they much more difficult to build?
And are they significantly heavier than a regular flamenco. Do they have any negatives for a player?
And finally; do they really sound and play very different from a single body instrument?
Manuel Lopez-Ramos brought his Juaquin Garcia double body guitar to our shop sometime in the early 70's. It had remarkable sustain, good volume and great projection. I wondered what the effect of the double body really was so I made a shell that I could slide a guitar into temporarily. I used wedges to hold it in place so it didn't rattle and could easily listen to the guitar with and without the shell. The difference was instantly apparent and pretty much everyone who tried it was very impressed with the effect. I didn't like the design of the Garcia so we went about developing our own version with the intent of making it more stable and stronger. It took years of experimenting to come up with proper dimensions since the extra body tends to increase the bass substantially.
Our most recent double body customer sat in our shop recently and played duets with his brother who was playing our Yamaha grand piano. It was remarkable how well the guitar could cut through the wall of sound from the piano.
Quick answers to your other questions:
They are extremely challenging to build They are slightly heavier They feel the same as a regular guitar but sound different
When I could still play guitar I always used a double. I still have the last one we built for me. It has all Brazilian RW interior and exterior, Red Cedar top and pegs. It was built in 1991 and has a very powerful voice. I was recently offered $5000 for it and almost laughed in the guy's face.
This one weighs about the same as an Indian rosewood negra negra.
John would you say that double bodies contrast with sound ports where a sound port would benefit the player and a double body would benefit the listener?
This one weighs about the same as an Indian rosewood negra negra.
John would you say that double bodies contrast with sound ports where a sound port would benefit the player and a double body would benefit the listener?
That's the one thing that most people have trouble getting used to. The sound is projected away from the player so there's less feedback than a traditional guitar.
If I had the energy and the inclination to perform more experiments adding a port to a double would be an interesting project. Right now I'm so engrossed with several other endeavors a ported double is probably not going to happen.
Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA
RE: Double-body guitars? (in reply to jshelton5040)
This is a new concept to me. From looking at the pictures of John's guitar that Tom pointed to, I'm guessing that it's more or less a complete guitar body nestled within a second guitar shaped shell? I'd guess that top bracing is more or less the same as a standard guitar? But there is probably much to think about in the back bracing because you have to worry about how both plates are coupling to each other and the top?
I'd imagine that, if the neck joint is a Spanish heel, that it would be done with a wide slot and wedges between the pair of sides?
This is a new concept to me. From looking at the pictures of John's guitar that Tom pointed to, I'm guessing that it's more or less a complete guitar body nestled within a second guitar shaped shell? I'd guess that top bracing is more or less the same as a standard guitar? But there is probably much to think about in the back bracing because you have to worry about how both plates are coupling to each other and the top?
I'd imagine that, if the neck joint is a Spanish heel, that it would be done with a wide slot and wedges between the pair of sides?
The two backs do not touch each other and the bracing for the inner back is placed in the cavity between the two backs so there is a smooth surface when you look in the soundhole.
The neck is a Spanish heel with four mortise slots to receive the sides. The two sets of sides are spaced 1/8" apart.
This is not what is commonly called a double back guitar since the two backs are not in contact. The extra shell works more like a resonator on a banjo.
It's a very different design, Castillo laminates the back and sides with spruce, other then that it is a tradition guitar. John's design is a guitar built inside a guitar, and to my knowledge he is the only person making Flamenco guitars like this today.
Salvador makes first class guitars for sure, they just differ in design from what's being discussed.
Posts: 1708
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
RE: Double-body guitars? (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
When I could still play guitar
John- Guitar making has been causing tendonitis in my middle and ring fingers lately and I wonder if a similar thing is the reason you can no longer play.
John- Guitar making has been causing tendonitis in my middle and ring fingers lately and I wonder if a similar thing is the reason you can no longer play.
No, it's just common osteo arthritis. No pain involved and not crippling I just can't bend my left hand fingers tight enough to play properly. I switched to classical piano about four years ago and it seems to keep my hands limber without the required tight bending and it's a joy to play.
Guitar making has been causing tendonitis in my middle and ring fingers lately
I´m starting to have problems with my left hand middle finger. we use a lot of tension in the left hand fingers sometimes when we build. It does that playing the guitar can be a bit painfull. And then I dont play
RE: Double-body guitars? (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
I switched to classical piano about four years ago and it seems to keep my hands limber without the required tight bending and it's a joy to play.
Interesting, John:
I enjoy playing Classic (Joplin) Ragtime piano; and I also have hand problems. But I find playing guitar a lot less tiring than the piano. (Not that I'm any good at either. . .)
I enjoy playing Classic (Joplin) Ragtime piano; and I also have hand problems. But I find playing guitar a lot less tiring than the piano. (Not that I'm any good at either. . .)
I have a great teacher who has showed me how to play with very relaxed hands. I practice about 2 hours every day and feel no strain at all. Right now it's Scarlatti, Mozart, Chopin, Bach and Haydn who are teaching me humility.
Like Anders and Ethan my left hand middle finger is the primary inhibitor of guitar playing. I dislocated the second joint picking up a suitcase of all things some years ago and the arthritis has exacerbated that old injury.
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Double-body guitars? (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jshelton5040
When I could still play guitar I always used a double. I still have the last one we built for me. It has all Brazilian RW interior and exterior, Red Cedar top and pegs. It was built in 1991 and has a very powerful voice. I
would the rosewood in, rosewood out be more like negra sounding. and rosewood in and cypress out be more like blanca sounding like what TanN was saying?
RE: Double-body guitars? (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
I have a great teacher who has showed me how to play with very relaxed hands. I practice about 2 hours every day and feel no strain at all. Right now it's Scarlatti, Mozart, Chopin, Bach and Haydn who are teaching me humility.
Lucky you John. I love flamenco, but I find as I get older I prefer to play classical music as the music I make a listen to cante. The problem is focus and chasing rehearsals with dancers. There are guys who accompany better and I don't have time to put into it and I respect the form too much to do it half assed. But I have trouble wiht my right shoulder and it is painful to even use the 80 gram bow of acello....hopefully I'll get back to it.
Playing music is wonderful and I see it as more an more wonderful as the time goes by that I can't physically do it. Glad to hear you are playing piano. And odd too because I listen more deeply now. I also have finger problems from guitar making, much of it comes from holding sanding blocks and scrapers.
I actually would like to learn how to construct that double shell guitar design. Maybe you could think about what you might want in exchange for a tutorial?
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: Double-body guitars? (in reply to jshelton5040)
Beautiful, John! I've been playing piano for a few months now, and am looking forward to start playing some of the great old masters. I figure it would be easier to learn piano to get my Scarlatti fix than try to play it on the guitar.
Beautiful, John! I've been playing piano for a few months now, and am looking forward to start playing some of the great old masters. I figure it would be easier to learn piano to get my Scarlatti fix than try to play it on the guitar.
When I started piano I thought it would be nice to play music on a linear keyboard. No more searching for the best place to play a given note. Well, what do you know, the piano is just as difficult as the guitar (maybe more so): however the wealth of music that is playable even for a beginner like me is a joy.
would the rosewood in, rosewood out be more like negra sounding. and rosewood in and cypress out be more like blanca sounding like what TanN was saying?
I think the wood in the shell makes little or no difference. I used Brazilian RW because I had it, it's beautiful and the guitar was for me. The weight has never bothered me but I've always held the guitar in the classic position (across the left leg).
I actually would like to learn how to construct that double shell guitar design. Maybe you could think about what you might want in exchange for a tutorial?
I'll see if I can find some pictures of doubles during construction to email you. You know the canard about "a thousand words".
Posts: 1812
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Double-body guitars? (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
Manuel Lopez-Ramos brought his Juaquin Garcia double body guitar to our shop sometime in the early 70's. It had remarkable sustain, good volume and great projection.
I have a 1984 Joaquín García classical double. I’m not a luthier, but I’d be happy to answer what questions I can, if anyone has any, or to post photographs.
It's quite heavy, and I remember Julian Byzantine telling me that’s one reason they didn’t sell so well — people don’t want to tote them around airports.
Can you perhaps post a few so that we can all see them?
For some reason every time I try to post a picture to the foro it fails. I know how to resize them and have posted pictures in the past I can send pictures in email but I've given up trying to post them here. It's too bad as I have some photos that might be of interest to a few people.
RE: Double-body guitars? (in reply to jshelton5040)
quote:
ORIGINAL: jshelton5040
quote:
ORIGINAL: britguy
John:
Can you perhaps post a few so that we can all see them?
For some reason every time I try to post a picture to the foro it fails. I know how to resize them and have posted pictures in the past I can send pictures in email but I've given up trying to post them here. It's too bad as I have some photos that might be of interest to a few people.
If I might butt in here I would recommend opening a Flickr account and upload the pics there. Then, each photo will come with a drop down menu that lets you copy a line of code to embed the photo here on the Foro, and you simply paste that code here. That way you never actually upload to the Foro, just to Flickr. So long as they exist on Flickr, they'll exist here.
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I would recommend opening a Flickr account and upload the pics there. Then, each photo will come with a drop down menu that lets you copy a line of code to embed the photo here on the Foro, and you simply paste that code here. That way you never actually upload to the Foro, just to Flickr. So long as they exist on Flickr, they'll exist here.
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