Grading Soundboards

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Grading Soundboards

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krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

Grading Soundboards

Graham and Louis Brookes paid me a visit recently and we made this short video about soundboard wood.

Basically, I feel that soundboards are sold and graded mainly on appearance and cosmetic considerations.
I've made some great guitars with cheaper, low grade spruce.
I know this point has been made before by Anders, but this video just gives some of my thoughts on choosing a good soundboard.

Thanks to Graham Brookes for making this short video.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 29 2012 19:21:51

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

Yesterday I took 4 German spruce soundboards soundboard down to 3mm thickness.
They cost me between 0 euros and 80 euros and very high quality soundboards, but graded very differently.
The two that I think are slightly better are the cheapest and the most expensive. The cheapest is a A grade with a lot of red streaking and the most expensive is AAAA almost perfect. It should be graded lower IMHO. They are both totally straight grained and totally flatsawn. The cheap one has slightly more grain per inch, but that is something I dont consider to be very important.
The only real importance is the red streakes. And this means that most builders wont use it because it looks "cheap" (it was cheap

) But the quality is absolutely top notch, so I´m going to use it for a 2A guitar.
So we throw out top quality old growth wood because of some esthetical issues. We should be ashame.
I think I´ll start making more guitars with socalled ugly woods. I´m 100% sure that its only a matter of working the esthetics and they might even be prettyer than the socalled pretty picture perfect ones that everyone wants.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2012 7:49:03

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Yes thats pretty much what I was trying to say in the video

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2012 7:52:33

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

In the classical world, my 1973 spruce/Indian Romanillos top has very wide grain near the center seam, narrows down a bit then widens out again. I've seen Bream's famous number 501 up close, the next one Romanillos made after mine. Its top could be the next board in the tree from mine. Kevin Aram, in a lecture to the Guild of American Luthiers drew on an interview with Romanillos about number 501. Guitar woods were hard to get in England in the 1970s. These tops were resawn from cello tops.

My Romanillos is my favorite among classicals I have played. Bream said his was "the best guitar I ever had." Bream had at least three Hausers, an Hernandez y Aguado, a Bouchet, and several other distinguished makers.

When I ordered my spruce/Brazilian classical from Abel Garcia in Paracho, he showed me some spruce. He said Romanillos gave it to him when he studied with Romanillos in Spain. Romanillos said it was from "early in my career." It had the same grain pattern as mine and Bream's.

For the back and sides of my Garcia I picked out a straight grained quarter sawn set of Brazilian. I asked him which set he would have picked. He indicated a slab sawn set. i asked him why. He said, "Because it is softer." I asked him how much difference my choice would make. "Very little," he replied.

I told him to pick out the top--he is the expert. In the event he picked a piece with very fine and even grain, with a lot of silk, perfectly quarter sawn with no runout. I never saw it before I got the finished guitar. I never asked him why he picked it, but I'm very happy with the instrument.

After I play the Garcia for a while, sometimes I get out the Romanillos to see which is better. The Romanillos is, but once in a while I have to compare them to make sure.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2012 8:56:20

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Guitar woods were hard to get in England in the 1970s.

And expensive!
I made my first guitar in the late 70's and I was only aware of two suppliers in England.
The idea of buying from abroad never entered my head. This was way before the internet and travel was also a relatively big deal then.
How times have changed eh?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2012 9:19:37

kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

Very interesting video, thanks!

Question1:
If you guys wanted to buy a spruce top for a flamenco guitar online without seeing the top yourself, how would you ask for it? If looks were not that important and you wanted a top quality for your money?

- light weight?
- no runout?
- perfectly quartersawn?
- stiff??
? in what order ?

Question2:
I see grading the top is very often tied with spruce tops. Does it mean the quality of cedar tops does not vary that wildly?

Thanks a lot!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2012 9:36:22

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

The most impotant factor is the weight/stiffness relation. But I dont think they will pick up using that factor. Perfectly quatersawn means that there´s a good posibility to get a good weight/stiffness relation.
Run out is very often taken to serious. A light runout doesnt really affect tone and stiffness along the grain. But some get really religious with their soundboards and so everything must be included.

Western red Cedar is a tree that is very big and produces soundboards with a very high consistancy. They are also graded like spruce, Again looks is often the main factor in grading cedar. The very dark light ones with very narrow grain are not my favorites. Often the 'ugly ones' are way better. some dark streaks doesnt matter.

In general, and even more in cedar than in spruce, I like a good strong contrast between the winter and summer part.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2012 10:58:27

Jim Kirby

Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

Downgrading for runout would eliminate a lot of pre-war Martin's from consideration as world class guitars.

My preference, which has no significance in terms of reams of experience, is for cross grain stiffness over cosmetic streakiness. I don't mind too much if a guitar displays the asymmetry resulting from runout.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 30 2012 20:52:18

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

Several years ago, I tried a Martin D28 from the 80th. It had the most low grade piece of sitka as a soundboard that I´ve ever seen on a guitar. The grain was very irregular, not straight at all, very wide grained and with weird red streaking all over the place. I must have cost less than 1 $.

The guitar played very well.
On the other hand I´ve seen and tried many Spanish factory flamenco and classicals with AAAA tops that played and sounded horrible.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2012 7:34:59

geert1957

Posts: 74
Joined: Jul. 18 2011
From: the Netherlands

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hi Anders,
I will try to save the money for an 'ugly'-wood 2A Negra.
Best wishes from Holland,
Geert.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2012 7:55:00

kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

Thanks a lot Anders, your explanation clarified things quite a bit.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2012 20:31:14

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to geert1957)

quote:

'ugly'-wood 2A Negra.

Maybe I should change my whole concept and start focussing on ugly woods. It would be alternative.
Anyone heard of uglywoodguitars.com

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2012 21:49:27

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

I'd buy one, there's a sushi place by my house called "Ugly Sushi" I eat their all the time. I get the "ugly special"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 31 2012 22:01:08

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

What is the ugly special?

I have a soundboard I'll show soon that is not an AAA grade, but I'm sensing it will make an AAA grade guitar. I also like some visual funkiness to the top, its fun.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2012 19:37:03

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

Sorry, not ugly special, Ugly Combo.

http://www.mcssl.com/store/sushideliverywestla/combo-special

EDIT: White people sushi........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 1 2012 20:28:11

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

quote:

Basically, I feel that soundboards are sold and graded mainly on appearance and cosmetic considerations.
I've made some great guitars with cheaper, low grade spruce.

I have to agree with you about the cosmetic value, as I usually will order my tops based on this ideal.

And although I order medium stiff tops, I have talked with Eugene Clark, one of the oldest American builders of flamenco guitars, and he usually builds with floppy tops due to his preference of building style.

I think the choice is really with the builder who likes one style over the next; perhaps for the economy or other reasons..... So, if the tops are a little off with stiffness, then I would prefer to deal with that rather than sacrifice cosmetic value.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2012 13:45:33

prd1

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Hi Tom,

I agree that the choice is with the builder - and ultimately with the purchaser.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 6 2012 22:01:31

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

Sorry to blow up the page with this big picture, but I wanted it to be near full size.

I love tops like this, with age this German top will have a fantastic golden brown glow. Cosmetically by industry standards I don't think it would rate A grade...but sonically it will rock this players world.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 22 2012 0:51:17

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I love tops like this, with age this German top will have a fantastic golden brown glow. Cosmetically by industry standards I don't think it would rate A grade...but sonically it will rock this players world.

This is music to my ears! I'm also a proponent of ze visual funkiness. My face isn't perfect, so my guitar's shouldn't be either.

my own, my love, my precioussssssssss

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 22 2012 2:06:48

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Cosmetically by industry standards I don't think it would rate A grade...

Maybe you´re right, but it´ll be sold as a AA or AA+ soundboard. IMO, 4A german spruce soundboards dont exist. Its something you can find in Sitka spruce (if you´re lucky)
I also agree that this soundboard will most probably sound very well if its totally quatered all the way to the edge. And IMO, its very pretty and I love the color of brownish german spruce.

Some of the best instruments I´ve played had wide grain soundboards

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 22 2012 7:47:50

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Some of the best instruments I´ve played had wide grain soundboards

Thats exactly my experience too, which is why I started this thread.
Its all down to stiffness/weight ratio as you said earlier.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 22 2012 8:35:11

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

So here you have 2 german spruce soundboards with very different grading and pretty similar tonal qualitys.
The top one is a AAA top. It has a very beautifull brownish color. That gets stronger towards the edges. It cost me 65,-€ + vat and shipping 5 or 6 years ago.
The bottom one is a A or even B grade soundboard. With reddish striping. It was given to me.
Soundwise, the AAA to is a bit stiffer at the same weight, but we talk about max 5%. They will both sound very well.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2012 17:03:33

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Some of the best instruments I´ve played had wide grain soundboards

the guitar that I recently sold, which I posted as having a crack somewhere last year, had a slightly wider grain towards the edge of the guitar kinda like shown by Stephen. It had a very good sound and feel. I sold it for $X price and the dealer I sold it to sold it for $2X one week after.

I think I just want a guitar that sound and feel awesome. I think alot of guitarist would want that as well.
I don't have a lot of spare money, so I have to save hard for my guitars, so I rather buy one that don't look as pretty but sound and feel just as good as any other super A grade guitars.

cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2012 21:43:29

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

I generally agree with what Anders said about the grain being vertical all the through the top, but once in a while I see old guitars with a bit of flat grain out in the lower bouts. I wonder somtims wif you have a really stiff top across the grain if a bit of flat grain wold really hurt it that much.

I'd be willing to make one like that for myself just to see what happens.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 23 2012 22:00:00

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to krichards)

On my latest blog post I have a rant about wood.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2012 8:00:06

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Grading Soundboards (in reply to johnguitar)

The by far ugliest soundborads I've seen on concert guitars were spruce soundboards used on some J. L. Bellido guitars. Very wide grain, changing grain width, dark spots...
They all sounded great. However, all those guitars I tried which had perfectly looking soundboards sounded great too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2012 11:58:56