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RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to RTC)
I think it really supports the idea that he put forth that Spanish guitars of that era were not made with differentiation between flamenco and classical.
RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
I think it really supports the idea that he put forth that Spanish guitars of that era were not made with differentiation between flamenco and classical.
Can´t see the video, but that idea to me only appeared plausible. The guitars originally mainly differing in the different budgets of the two clienteles, with gitanos as of lesser monetary ability receiving the less lavish guitars.
And if we may suspend ourselves from the preconceived passion for a moment, one might still hear the cheap in the typical characteristics of the established flamenco guitar. In fact much of it can still be found in contemporary uncaring production ( like Hohner junk of the seventies or todays ~ 30-50$ equivalent in some airport stores of underdeveloped countries ).
Laying aside flamencas greater soundstage, responsiveness and complexity, the colour of a cigar box and lack of sustain still make for the basics of a flamenco timbre. These days deemed desirable ( fully to me, only to a degree to others of the aficionados community who at times prefer a more splendid colour of sound ).
With coincidentally such percussive box characteristics optimally suiting demands of an accentuated dancing scene. Consequently, the historical out-put of low budget luthiery standing for another item of so mystically well matching circumstance of music history.
Why did inexpensive blancas turn out fitting the performing demands of Spanish gipsys so perfectly, why the typical blues arrangement so matching the sorrow of its contents, why the merry wailing klesmer clarinet so suiting the need for a cheering up from depressing circumstances?
History´s coincidental matching in ways only gifted record producers could.
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RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to RTC)
I agree with Stephen that this 1893 guitar made by Vicente Arias supports Richard Brune's contention that there was no distinction between flamenco and classical guitars at that time. The distinction at that time was between expensive and less expensive, but they were all "Spanish guitars." Flamenco vs. classical is a distinction that developed later, in the first half of the 20th century.
Richard Brune's video and playing also demonstrate how great a well-made "Spanish guitar" holds up, even when it is more than a century old. It still plays beautifully. Nice to see what great and careful craftsmanship can accomplish. Wonderful video.
Cheers,
Bill
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RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to RTC)
Cool vid. guitar sounds very classical to me though. Man he scared me with that first rasgueado, I thought he was doing golpes from above at first I was like "nooooo!!!!!".
RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to RTC)
quote:
guitar sounds very classical to me though
I think the Brune' premise, and I may not fully understand his idea, is that there was not a specialty of making flamenco vs. classicals until later....I can't give an exact date right because that is silly. The Torres style more or less was what they made, but there is a latitude of how a builder can make that style of instrument sound and respond under the hand. As flamenco developed in the 20 the century the flamenco guitar players showed an interest in in certain attributes which makers began to emphasize. Santos seems to be at the fore of the first ones who really made a choice to emphasize the characteristics that flamenco players liked. ( I could be wrong, I was not there) but the guitars were Spanish guitars and some sounded more "flamenco" or suited to how flamenco was developing than others.
I think a kind of natural selection occurred in which the traits of certain guitars became desirable over others a builders just began to aim for those sounds. In the end it pretty much culminates with Barbero; at which point there was a clear and decisive understanding in most players minds between flamenco guitars and classical guitars.
I can just see Brune' in his lab coat in a special high security area in this shop where he takes DNA samples of rare Spanish guitars and unravels the amino acid chains with complicated medical imaging software. Like a selfless later day Mendel of guitar making he will someday publish the full timeline and genetic comparison which will conclusively support the dating of the nomenclature of the one trunk of Spanish guitar being split into it's two current species. Perhaps then Brune's DNA analysis the flamenco guitar will show how the flamenco guitar is not a hybridized subspecies of the classical guitar, created like some Frankensteinian freak from mating and manipulating generations of these peas with those peas. The Brune' DNA work will eventually be accepted to correctly posit that the Spanish guitar with lighter colored markings is the genetic full sister of the other Spanish guitar with darker colored markings. Two female offspring in the same paternal line, but which express different genes for coloration.
RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to RTC)
Why thank you Sir, my pleasure. I hope R.E. Brune' laughs if he reads it while lurking.
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Also when I see guitars like this it inspires me to go on. We must keep in touch with the roots of guitar making even when we go for modern concepts. Those older makers were really, really good.
RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to RTC)
Cool cool cool. Brune is still in great shape playing-wise.
I would say that the entire evolution of the guitar has been driven players, in conjunction with, but mostly likely to a greater extent than builders.
So the "flamenco guitar" most likely began to be differentiated in the first couple of decades of the 20th century, although it might not have been labeled as such until some time later. This would correspond with the rising popularity and development of flamenco music, with guitarists like Ramon Montoya, Miguel Borrull and Javier Molina looking for master quality instruments that would be the perfect tools of their trade. Santos seems to have been the biggest name at the cusp of this transition.
One interesting thing to study would be the history of the golpe and the golpeador. Ramon Montoya and others seem to have been using golpes in the earliest recorded examples of their playing but I've never heard definitively how far back the technique goes. And I'm sure Santos was making cypress guitars with built-on maple tap plates back then, which pretty definitively shows that the guitars were meant to be used for flamenco. Which, after all, is really the definition of a "flamenco guitar", notwithstanding tonal differences that were also clearly being developed.
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RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
The first mention of a specifically "flamenco" guitar in an advertising brochure is from Manuel Ramirez - Santos's mentor and employer. Domingo Esteso and Modesto Borreguero were also employed by Manuel Ramirez. Norman
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RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
quote:
And I'm sure Santos was making cypress guitars with built-on maple tap plates back then, which pretty definitively shows that the guitars were meant to be used for flamenco. Which, after all, is really the definition of a "flamenco guitar", notwithstanding tonal differences that were also clearly being developed.
my guess is all the guitars used by flamencos were destroyed by golpes until they starting putting wood tap plates....and they probably did that over top of damage at first...just my guess. I remember seeing a maple M. Ramirez from 1912 that had tap plate on it. guitar salon considered it a classical but it was obvious SOMEONE was using it for flamenco. Ramirez III says in his book he had a cypress torres 1862 that he implies was probably the type flamenco players gravitated to. He thinks that cypress was thought to be good luck vs the dark wood guitars that might be bad luck (gypsy superstitions). So his grandfather made a guitar (Jose I) for professionals and called it "tablao" guitar. the one he had in collection was 1918, maple back and sides... a bit bigger size but skinnier. M. Ramirez his brother made the same type of guitar too (he had 1900 version in collection), but decided to innovate and cater to the players more, and seems to feel the proper flamenco guitar model is based on his great uncle's design, not his grandfathers, and has one from 1911. (I assume it's either cypress or maple he doesn't say, also no mention of contributions of Santos or Esteso, employed by his Great Uncle). He said his dad (Jose II) was not so stubborn and adapted Manuels model, and he himself (jose III) pretty much sticks to the same general plan, (he liked the idea of tradition, but he innovated freely with classical guitars).
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RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to Ricardo)
In his book, and in conversations I had with him in the process of buying classicals to import to the USA, Jose III attributed his design for flamencas to the "almost superstitious" insistence of the flamenco players for a "traditional" design.
Oddly enough, almost all of the thousands of flamencas his operation produced after the mid-1960s had cedar tops. Jose III stoutly proclaimed himself to be the innovator of using cedar for tops.
RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
Oddly enough, almost all of the thousands of flamencas his operation produced after the mid-1960s had cedar tops. Jose III stoutly proclaimed himself to be the innovator of using cedar for tops.
I've always considered Ramirez an unreliable narrator in regards to his book.
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RE: R.E. Brune 1893 Guitar Restoration (in reply to RTC)
I think that when this guitar was made, there was no such thing as solo flamenco guitar playing, only accompaniment to dance and singing. Not only couldn't flamenco guitarists afford fancy guitars like this; they had no requirement for them. Thus began the tradition of cheap cypress guitars as flamenco guitars. And their sound caught on....
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