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Emphasizing compas downbeats/accents
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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 RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to mark indigo)
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downbeats down really work in flamenco ..per se....
it is best to think of them as accents and these may change depending on what you
playing , , As mentioned I would think of them as accents as often they do not occur at the beginning of the bar anyway .....
So although you still have your 1..3..6..8..10. accents they will occur . like this eg
Solea ......1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8....9....10...11...12.....rep
Bulerias is the same but you might start on beat 12 , so as solea get the golpe on the third beat , bulerias may get it on the forth ,,although you still call it 3 ..... because you started 1 beat earlier ....like this ......
12...1...2....3...4...5...6...7...8....9....10...11..rep
and some may get it on beat 7 instead of 6 ....
12...1...2....3...4...5...6...7...8....9....10...11..rep
so try playing eg......the A major chord and with a hammer on / pull off Bb , on the third string ...but make the golpes hit those
12..3..6..8..10....beats
.........I think the one thing you have to know is when things start and stop ,,,, like phrasing ...which often end on beat 10 <Bulerias) , or things that start on beat 3 ( Alegrias ) etc etc....
Maybe i should make a sound file to illustrate what I mean here ....anyway ...have a look here at this site its not too big and has basic info on getting the rhythms in place .
Go here then click on "Flamenco Forms " and choose one ,,,.. I hope this helps ....
http://www.studioflamenco.com/index.html
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Date Sep. 20 2012 18:20:37
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dararith
Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA
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RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to El Kiko)
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quote:
downbeats down really work in flamenco ..per se....
it is best to think of them as accents and these may change depending on what you
playing , , As mentioned I would think of them as accents as often they do not occur at the beginning of the bar anyway .....
I agree with Kiko entirely here.
To emphasize an accent (or downbeat, as you call it -- confusing, since downbeat means a down stroke to me ... and in the non-flamenco world, downbeat is the heavy accent...not so true in flamenco), you can either:
1) Play it louder with finger(s) that can give you more strength (am fingers, m, or p)
2) Add a golpe WITH step 1
3) Do a golpe with no strumming
4) Rasgueados that finishes on the accent you want
5) Strum a different chord or add a different note on the accent
6) Play certain phrases louder -- you can do a build up from quiet to loud.
7) Play NOTHING at all for the accent -- (this works especially well if you play everything up until the accent loud and everything after the accent loud)
8) Conversely, play ANYTHING at the accent, but with nothing around it for a few beats or so.
9) ... ... ... etc, the list goes on.
Bear in mind that an accent can be played loud, but it doesn't have to be. It's simply something that distinctly sounds different from the 'main' phrasing.
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Date Sep. 21 2012 3:44:35
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
thanks again. It is I suppose very "freestyle" on how one relates the playing to the compas, but I suppose it still is different as playing with a metronome, even when some bars might not accent the compas at all?
Also, when I listen palmas on the background of famous guitarists I am having hard time to hear the usual accents. Is there maybe some good site to help me to understand the accents in palmas(and maybe to learn some variations of the compas in case there are some)
freestyle? Not at all. You can't just do whatever random rhythm or counter time synchopation. In order for it to be tasteful and good, you need a base to build from as a composer so your "new" ideas rhythmically speaking have meaning. Perhaps the difference is not noticeable to laymen or newcomers to the art, but that doesn't mean it's not important. Indeed, it's ALL about that as you advance. You need understand how flamenco evolved. Many people say modern flamenco is jazzy....I tend to disagree in favor of the more clear internal evolution that has had with the rhythm. By that I mean take a form, such as solea, go back to ramon montoya and follow the steps through time how trends changed. Paco de lucia is important to study regarding this because of his massive recording catologue the evolution becomes clear by simply lining up his tracks of solea and buleria por solea by date.
THe secret to learning after developing your ear for the parameters of what is tasteful with compas, is to play for baile. In that environment, the rhythmic vocabulary is learned sort of like drum rudiments. Important phrases that become natural over time and doing new off set timing variations of those rudiments is done in very small steps. As one advances you start to catch on to what guys like Diego are doing that turns out being quite sophisticated but hardly random or freestyle as it might sound relative to the old traditional base.
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Date Sep. 23 2012 15:50:56
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
quote:
Here is an important topic, read through entirely. AFter you get centered no matter how crazy the subdivision of the beat is, it is easy to feel the time and get a grip on where you are in the compas.
Thanks, I don't actually have trouble with tangos and other 4 beat compas, but I am having hard time with 12 beat compas and learning how to relate guitar to it properly and also with centering. On the guitarsalon site though I found a good tip to ground oneself to 3rd and 10th beat, does anyone else do this?
THat's not right. The grounding and center weight for 12 counts, as I stated above, are 12 and 6. 3 or 4, 9 or 10, are the answer points or the tail end of the compas. (UNLESS YOU HAVE A VERY SLOW COMPAS also as stated) the chordal strums there are expressions of answering or finalizing a phrase. In tangos dancers count to 8 and the answer phrase equivalent of 10 is count 7. Dancers tend to start counting from 7 for this reason in class (siete ocho nueve diez un DOS!) and for tangos start counting from 5 (5,6,7,8).
The head beats are 12 or 6, sometimes accented, often just felt and played OFF of starting on 1 or 7, the tail ends are 3 or 9 with rasgueado or harmonic changes typically.
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Date Sep. 23 2012 22:30:49
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
quote:
The grounding and center weight for 12 counts, as I stated above, are 12 and 6. 3 or 4, 9 or 10, are the answer points or the tail end of the compas. (UNLESS YOU HAVE A VERY SLOW COMPAS also as stated) the chordal strums there are expressions of answering or finalizing a phrase.
Thanks again. Can you please elaborate what means answering a phrase?
And if one finalizes a phrase on 3 or 4, does one just wait until the next compas cycle before playing anything else?
Does 3,4,9 and 10 answer/finalizing points work in every 12 beat compas?
This kind of information is really helpful and I suppose very essential(even when I haven't bumped into it online before), thank you.
Both when accompanying cante and playing falsetas, the idea is sort of question and answer. To harmonize for a flamenco singer we answer the melody with the chord change, rather than have the two occur simultaneously. Depending on where in time the melody stops and gives the clue to the guitar which chord to play, you either answer on 3 or 10. Counts 4 or 9 actually reveal if you want to imply or make a half compas phrase (relative to the 'normal" 3 or 10 beat feelings). IN this manner the singer can improvise and the guitar accompanist follows with not a pre concieved concept of a chord chart (as in jazz or pop music where the chart IS the song structure. IN flamenco we can make up the chart on the fly as per the melodic wims of the singer). In some forms doing a half compas is acceptable but not so common (exception is buleria where it is quite common to discard or add 6 beats to answer a phrase).
It is an interest and unique thing about flamenco rhythm. I would say that no ALL 12 beat song forms are like this. Guajira for example has same rhythmic phrasing, but harmonically the guitar sticks to keeping chord changes on the down beats (12 or 6), but it's a fine line since the underlying feeling is similar so sometimes say alegrias ideas creep in.
Regarding guitar solos, melodic phrasing tends to be symmetrical in the sense we most often end a melodic phrase on 6 (down beat) or 10 (tail end of compas). THis allows a square feeling such that a melody ending on 6 gets rounded off by some interesting rasgueado or other type of phrase (remate) which nicely answers the melody. Other melodic phrases that end on 10 are thought to already include the remate within the notes themselves such that the full idea is complete and no "answer" is needed. THe new cycle begins afterwards on the downbeat of 12. In the case of buleria mainly (although this happens in some guitar solos of alegria in minor key and solea too ie slow compas) it is acceptable to do half compases. So if a phrase ends on 4 of a cycle, it is taken to feel as 10 and the next 6 becomes 12 of a new cycle. Conversly if a melodic phrases ends on count 12 in buleria, it begs for a remate or resolution answer that need not be longer than counts 1->4 and again that is taken as count 10 as a half compas. IN the case of very long melodic passages, there need not be any remates (ending on 4 or 10) so a constant phrasing in 3 or 6 is expressed (12 and 6 are most important and the feeling of 10 say, is played through or perhaps 9 is accented instead). There are in fact complete guitar solos that make very little use of remates or even rasgueado strumming, and often refered to these days as "vals buleria". They tend to have a "spanish classical" vibe too.
There are sequential type phrases too where a chord could put on the head beats (12 and 6) and the melody leads to next chord hit. Other phrases via pick up notes might lead into down beats and chords are done as answers (on 3 and 9 for example). and after all the beats I have avoided talking about can be deliberately expressed in similar fashion, to answer a melody of pick up notes that lead the down beats. (Tomatito famous bass line falseta that starts on 10 going to D minor in 5th position on count 12 and the chord answers on 2, then next phrase begins 4 leads to 6 with C chord answer on 8 etc on down Bb-A).
It is important to understand that the number system is not followed like a math rule. We talk about these details after the fact, the truth is the phrases need to be simply felt and most players would not even know what beat they land on other than intuition as "oh I am on the downbeat and I need to rematar...". Other times half compases are very deliberate such as the way Manuel Morao accompanies bulerias with a forced half compas remate everytime. It is not counted per say or even thought of in numbers, but it is not random.
I will finally add that you will also encounter, very rarely, odd phrases of 3 too, where not even a full half compas is made. Again do to the fact there is no counting just feeling of phrases. THis would be considered a mistake to most professionals however because it forces the palmeros to adjust their internal down beats.... but it's been done.
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Date Sep. 24 2012 13:44:11
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