Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Why can't I hear it!?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Pilluminati

 

Posts: 16
Joined: Oct. 24 2010
 

Why can't I hear it!? 
0:00-0:11, Is it just me who has problems hearing the compas? If I start listening to the song right from the beginning I will hear the compas inverted (or something). But if I listen to the song from 0:12~ I hear it correctly.



No idea why... Anyone else having the same problem?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2012 21:14:26
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Pilluminati) 
I count like this the rhythm 1e&ah 2e&ah.
Others count different but you foot needs to be on
1,2. Claps are up beat &ah, & etc
His arp starts on "ah" right BEFORE 1.

The reason your ear is thrown at first is cuz
The bass notes fall on ah after 1, and the tonic on the ah after 2.
I call that leading the Down beat. Probably your ear wantsM that last bass
note on the down beat, or the first bass note on down beat. (down
Beat is 1 amigos). Ear gravitates heavy beats to bass notes
And this case they are not on heavy beats.

Easy way to lock in is to feel beat 2 right after that first bass note

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 16 2012 22:15:59
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Pilluminati) 
dom - taka - dom - tak .... dom - taka - dom - tak .....

it's all fine man

_____________________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarristaAD
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2012 4:33:34
 
Pilluminati

 

Posts: 16
Joined: Oct. 24 2010
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Pilluminati) 
I also have a problem with hearing the "dom - taka - dom tak..."
in the correct order sometimes.

It's like 50-50 that I get it right, otherwise I will hear it like:
"taka - dom - tak... taka - dom - tak..."
It's really weird, got no problems with bulerias, siguiriyas, solea por bulerias etc. Just Tangos.

Should probably get my ears checked lol
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2012 15:40:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Pilluminati) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pilluminati

I also have a problem with hearing the "dom - taka - dom tak..."
in the correct order sometimes.

It's like 50-50 that I get it right, otherwise I will hear it like:
"taka - dom - tak... taka - dom - tak..."
It's really weird, got no problems with bulerias, siguiriyas, solea por bulerias etc. Just Tangos.

Should probably get my ears checked lol

its ok man, Al dimeola made the same mistake with Paco once when Paco started Mediterranean sundance with dry rhythm. Paco and Mclaughlin had to "cross over" after Al started playing the melody in the wrong spot.

Work on grounding your ear by making loops of tangos or rumba starting at weird points in compas....like the example above, but there are others. Here is a fun non flamenco one I noticed the other day. Can you all find the beat based on the thumping keyboard intro? HINT: the first thump doesnt begin on count 1, but the song is in 4..... free skype lesson to whom ever tells me what the first thump starts on.



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2012 16:02:35
 
malakka

Posts: 170
Joined: Jan. 14 2009
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Pilluminati) 
Seems like beat 3 to me
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2012 17:31:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to malakka) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: malakka

Seems like beat 3 to me

nope

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2012 17:42:01
 
malakka

Posts: 170
Joined: Jan. 14 2009
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Pilluminati) 
Funny, I kept counting it as beat 3, but I just counted it out as beginning on beat 4.

I assume my second attempt doesn't count.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2012 17:53:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to malakka) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: malakka

Funny, I kept counting it as beat 3, but I just counted it out as beginning on beat 4.

I assume my second attempt doesn't count.

It counts...and is also wrong, though closer then your first attemp.

Maybe this would make it more clear. How many thumping sounds occur BEFORE the first Down beat (count 1) occurs?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2012 18:21:59
 
malakka

Posts: 170
Joined: Jan. 14 2009
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Pilluminati) 
Wierd, I had counted 30 "thumps" before, but now put headphones on and counted 31 "thumps".

So, now my answer is that it begins on beat 2
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2012 19:13:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to malakka) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: malakka

Wierd, I had counted 30 "thumps" before, but now put headphones on and counted 31 "thumps".

So, now my answer is that it begins on beat 2

The number 30 doesn't make sense...it would be either A LOT more if you refer to where the band kicks in....or A LOT less if you go by what I meant that if you count in 4, the very very very FIRST time you must say "1" in order you be on time when the band does come in. Make sense?

If you call the thumps 16th notes, then you have only 16 per measure of 4.
If you call the thumps 8th notes, then you have only 8 per measure.

Either way the concept of where the first time 1 occurs is the same. So we are talking less then 16 or perhaps less then 8 thumps before the first count "1" can occur. Make sense? I prefer to think of them as 16ths because of the way the rest of the song grooves the snare drum on count 2 and 4. So again, how many thumps (less then 16) happen before count 1???

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 17 2012 19:43:19
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Ricardo) 
there are some 2...4 thumps missing for a full cycle in the last compas. So that would be 5 x 16 = 80 - (2...4)
So something between 76...78 thumps would be my guess.

As for the location of the starting thump, i would say that the last thump ends just one 16th before the 3, so the guitar starts right on 3 [EDIT: i think it may also start one 16th before 3?]? Assuming that is correct, which im not sure of tbh, my calculation would yield something between two 16ths after 3 and right on 4 (since that is wrong im guessing either two or three 16ths after 3).

oh please reply quickly Ricardo! I need to know whether i am close

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 10:45:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

there are some 2...4 thumps missing for a full cycle in the last compas. So that would be 5 x 16 = 80 - (2...4)
So something between 76...78 thumps would be my guess.

As for the location of the starting thump, i would say that the last thump ends just one 16th before the 3, so the guitar starts right on 3 [EDIT: i think it may also start one 16th before 3?]? Assuming that is correct, which im not sure of tbh, my calculation would yield something between two 16ths after 3 and right on 4 (since that is wrong im guessing either two or three 16ths after 3).

oh please reply quickly Ricardo! I need to know whether i am close

Wow man, that is a lot of math. I just want to see if folks can feel the beat expressed in the intro so that you can count clap or tap foot right on with band when they come in. "Something between 2 16th after 3 and right on 4" is SO close. The right answer is a simple number though. How many thumps BEFORE count 1?

Couple of things to clear, which are hints I guess. Oh just saw your edit, NO.
The instrument that you hear play the bass note melody is actually a keyboard with distortion, not a guitar. But I know what you meant. That first note does NOT start ON beat 3, but you are close. The band comes together on ONE with drum crash guitars bass etc. And they all feel the time before that....that is point of this exercise. I said it was a challenge.

Ok one last hint. The note the keyboard starts as a pick up to the entire band coming in (notes are B.....C B then band comes on C) is not beat 3, but a 16th note right after and the first thump of the keyboard intro is not that same timing spot as that note.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 12:11:48
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Im trying to tap along to the intro and when the band comes in at 1 i am at 2 already. ALWAYS Wait, maybe THEY dont feel the beat correctly

well ok "how many thumps before 1" thats another question. I was measuring against the keyboard, but measuring against the band might be easier. Ill do it now.

quote:

so that you can count clap or tap foot right on with band when they come in


with that "pickup" keyboard - no problem. Without that - no way.

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 13:11:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

Im trying to tap along to the intro and when the band comes in at 1 i am at 2 already. ALWAYS


THat is the expected mistake...and the phenomenon experienced at the start of this thread, and is a main problem with timing people have in general....and hence why I chose this as an example. Final hint. If you count Diego's tango the same exact like you count Van Halen (in 4 not 2, so that his arpegio is the same 16ths as the thumping keyboard intro), then the very first Thump of the keyboard corresponds exactly as Diegos FIRST funky bass note (meaning the C# not the quiet D# he hits at the start).

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 13:31:26
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Diegos FIRST funky bass note (meaning the C# not the quiet D# he hits at the start).


That C# is one 16th before 2 right?

ok i make my last bet. Proably i shifted 2 beats and meant 4. I say the first thump in that Van Halen intro is one 16th before 4!!! If thats wrong i give up and stick with Diego's Tangos which i can clap to right from the beginning

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 13:42:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Diegos FIRST funky bass note (meaning the C# not the quiet D# he hits at the start).


That C# is one 16th before 2 right?

ok i make my last bet. Proably i shifted 2 beats and meant 4. I say the first thump in that Van Halen intro is one 16th before 4!!! If thats wrong i give up and stick with Diego's Tangos which i can clap to right from the beginning

You got it finally man (5 thumps before 1 or ah4e&ah) But I practically gave it away.

I made a video clapping to that Van Halen Intro. I think the interesting thing about rhythm is what happens with the feeling of subdiviision. It is not about counting those thumps 4x4 to keep time, but feeling the phrase. Whenever the phrase doesn't start on the beat, 2 things happen as mistakes to the listener. If the listener has good tempo, then the phrase gets shifted off all the way to a stronger grounding point. The other thing that happens, more common, is the listener or student will express (either clap foot or playing instrument) by rushing or dragging to correspond what they percieve as a heavy beat, even if it was meant to be off the beat. That why people go off compas or can't do palmas etc, cuz they get thrown off track.

One final thing. The keyboard thumping is not just a percussive sound that you need to count to come in with the band. Once you lock into the "1" from the start you notice it is actually a melodic bass line phrase that has a very clear beat expression all along. I look at locking in to a groove like this the same as visualizing those 3D computer made pictures where at first glance it is mess until your depth perception orients itself and you finally see the 3D image pop out at you. Some folks are so good at it they can reverse the image so that instead of standing out, it appears to fold inward. Same thing when you hear a phrase shifted off track rhythmically and are able to maintain that feeling in your mind shifted.

Posting vid soon

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 13:58:12
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Ricardo) 


i feel released. But above i already stated either two or three 16th after 3 (which the same as one 16th before 4) and you said its close!! So i thought its NOT one of those answers. But then you gave the Diego reference and THAT was actually the thing that made it clear to me.

Tricky thing indeed!

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 14:05:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

feel released. But above i already stated either two or three 16th after 3 (which the same as one 16th before 4) and

Well, 2 OR 3 is a WORLD of difference Ok, but I miss read it as 2nd or 3rd 16th of beat 3, it's the 4th 16th of beat 3, but you didn't count 3 so you would have been correct (if you ONLY said 3 )

Anyway here goes for the vid, I clap loud only 1, the sordas are &2&3&4&.



I know just because I made this vid to help, it is still not easy for everyone to do on their own, so I recommend anyone with similar issues practice to this and other similar music that has off beat pick-up phrases.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 14:11:58
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Can you do it because you can hear dynamics (ie the beats) in that or because you "know" where the 1 is because you have analized this track and are just accustomed to clapping along to it?

_____________________________

Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 20:04:44

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Pilluminati) 
Can someone tell me why..... cant this be love??

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 20:11:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to XXX) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

Can you do it because you can hear dynamics (ie the beats) in that or because you "know" where the 1 is because you have analized this track and are just accustomed to clapping along to it?

sort of both. By analized the track it implies I counted it all out etc, but that's not quite what I needed to do. I thought it sounded weird when I played in the car the other day. So I rewind and keep time from the start. What happened was the band kicked in right after 2, or 1e&ah2 E!!!!!....so it was immediately clear I was 5 thumps off from the start. So I listened again to check, that's pretty much all the analysis I needed to do. No counting really rather the feeling of what happened with the band coming off beat 2. ANd as I said earlier at the moment you lock into 1 the thumping sounds more like a bass line melody with clear phrasing of the compas. Ooops, "groove".

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 21:08:19
 
malakka

Posts: 170
Joined: Jan. 14 2009
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Pilluminati) 
Thanks Ricardo, that was an interesting exercise. I certainly made it more difficult by counting each thump and trying to organize them in groups of four. Made it much harder than I needed - over-analysis. Last night I tried a couple of times to just feel the groove - still kept coming in before the 1 when the band kicked in. Listening to the low bass under the thumps is key. I learned a lot form this. Again, thank you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 18 2012 23:00:28
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Why can't I hear it!? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

I recommend anyone with similar issues practice to this and other similar music that has off beat pick-up phrases.


This was a good exercise. Do you have any other examples of similar music with "off beat pick-up phrases"? I ask, in part, because if you need the practice, then you're probably not in a position to identify relevant examples.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 19 2012 8:19:01
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.