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RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin of name?   You are logged in as Guest
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NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
 

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo) 
Ricardo, your Rito data match something I've found in the March-April 2001 issue of Candil, dedicated to Morao. It indicates that his father was Manuel Moreno de Soto y Monje (1902-1955), a singer of bulerías al golpe and guitarist. That's quite a flamenco name. "Soto" is the Sordera family, which goes back to Paco La Luz, and it was also one of the last names of Manuel Torre's father. "Monje" is thought to be one of the last names of the Marrurro brothers and it was definitely one of the last names of Terremoto padre and Camarón. Someone with that same last name told me that there are two Monje families, one in Cádiz and another in Jerez.

In an interview (no info on date or publication but the author is Francisco González), Manuel Morao (the uncle) said that he didn't know of any special meaning of "Morao," adding that artistic names often don't indicate anything specific or accurately reflect anything real. He said that he thought "Morao" might go back to his great grandfather.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 9:21:56
 
El Kiko

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From: The South Ireland

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Escribano) 
Moraito is just cos he is the 'little' or young Moreno ' ito' being the diminutive ...

So hes the son of .. Juan Moreno ... making him little Manuel Moreno ..Moraito ....for short
thats all.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 12:34:41
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

unlike before.

humm let me think about it


quote:

cos he is the 'little' or young Moreno ' ito' being the diminutive ...

it would be Morenito entonces or morenchico or diego del morencito

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 12:42:18
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to NormanKliman) 
quote:

artistic names often don't indicate anything specific or accurately reflect anything real


didn't Tomatito's Grandfather get the name "Tomate" 'cos he had a red face?

and Camarón 'cos he was pale like a shrimp?

there must have been some reason or assocation to acquire the nickname
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 13:07:06
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mezzo) 
quote:

it would be Morenito entonces o

No it wouldnt .... i think you may be confused ....

Moreno and Morao go together , like Curro and Fransisco

so remember his uncle was Moraíto (Manuel Moreno a.k.a. Manuel Morao), and son of the original Moraíto Chico (Juan Moreno).
And he is Moraito Chico 2.0 as his Dad was Juan Moreno ( Moraíto Chico 1.0 )

And I just looked to see if it continues in the family and of course it does as his son is Diego Del Morao,


quote:

morenchico or diego del morencito

As to those two they are two names that will never exist ,,, I hope ......

Maybe you could take one as your Flamenco name ....
Mezzochico , or Mezzocito , if you have a son ....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 16:06:03
 
El Kiko

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From: The South Ireland

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

didn't Tomatito's Grandfather get the name "Tomate" '


I think i remember on an interview somewhere him saying that his Dad had the nickname "EL Tomate" so he would be Tomatito ,,,and some joke about a daughter being " Tomatita" but I dont remember all of it .......

I would have to look for that again ,

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 16:10:46
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to El Kiko) 
Hey kikito thanks for your explaination about Curro, I always wondered what this diminutive means

But I did not clearly understand what you meant by "Moreno and Morao go together". Do you actually think that Morao is actually a contraction or a diminutive of Moreno, like Curro or Pepe are for other names?


quote:

i think you may be confused ....

Well in that case my bad! But I'm pretty convinced for my part that you missed a couple of steps here

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 19:51:08
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
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From: The South Ireland

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mezzo) 
quote:

Morao is actually a contraction or a diminutive of Moreno, like Curro or Pepe are for other names?


No its not a diminutive , maybe I dont explain well , ..Curro and pepe are not diminutives , just alternate names for Fransisco ...

Mean if his Father was Juan Moreno , but he was known as a natural kind of nickname as Juan Morao , and he , earlier would have also , i guess been known as Moraito, when he was younger .
And now its his son , so he would (probably ) inherit the nickname too. of Moraito becuase , at the time he gets the nickname , he is younger , little , hence the diminutive.. but he also has another diminutive which is the 'Chico' bit .
As he is smaller , it also , may , imply he is the youngest or only son ..but not always ....
It seems clearer to me ...maybe I am not the one to explain languages and nicknames

Example ...there is a "Chico" that lives near me called Chico Paredes . his name really is Rafael Paredes ... and so is his Dad called the same...although he has 2 brothers he is the youngest and , i dont know why , just got the chico nickname ...if his dad had a nickname he may have got that as well...but in this case he didnt ...

Kikito works (and I am the youngest as well) but this is not a rule as the first born is always the youngest until the second is born ...but really if there was a Kikito here it would be my son ,....
(Anyway in Spain my nickname is spelled Quiquo , Its just with K here for ease of typing and pronunceing ..... not that that is important. )

I just knew I should have stayed out of this thread .....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 20:49:37
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to El Kiko) 
quote:

I just knew I should have stayed out of this thread


or perhaps simply read through it before posting?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 21:21:45
 
El Kiko

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From: The South Ireland

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo) 
Si Señor .....eso ..



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 21:32:13
 
mezzo

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From: .fr

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to El Kiko) 
quote:

No its not a diminutive , maybe I dont explain well , ..Curro and pepe are not diminutives , just alternate names for Fransisco ...

Sorry kiko I'm still confused about your reasoning
I'm not able to determine in what way you associated Morao and Moreno in your mind.

Curro Dulce - (Curro's alternative for Francisco)
or
Rafael Romero "el Gallina" - (Gallina's alternative for Romero) or Gallina is something else. El gallinito could be his son's name.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 21:52:03
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to El Kiko) 
quote:

maybe I dont explain well , ..


maybe.... but i think we get the way nicknames are handed from father or uncle to son or nephew....

and i thought we got established that morao is from morado meaning purple.

and moreno means brown, or dark skinned, and it's the surname

so unless i'm missing something here, moreno is nothing to do with morao, except just a coincidence here that someone has moreno as a surname and morao as a nickname....

or maybe i'm just more confused than i think i am

and i thought the real question was: how or why did the first morao get called morao in the first place?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 22:24:09
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

and i thought the real question was: how or why did the first morao get called morao in the first place?


Ok guys that don't want to read the thread, for the abridged version that answers the question of the initial post:

ONLY READ NORMAN'S POSTS IN THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2012 23:13:15
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to NormanKliman) 
quote:

Ok guys that don't want to read the thread, for the abridged version that answers the question of the initial post:

ONLY READ NORMAN'S POSTS IN THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!


Hold on Ricardo, let me find you that dead horse..........around here somewhere.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2012 1:02:32
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Ok guys that don't want to read the thread, for the abridged version that answers the question of the initial post:

ONLY READ NORMAN'S POSTS IN THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!


and the answer is.... nobody knows.

but at least we got the question clarified
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2012 21:44:54
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mark indigo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Ok guys that don't want to read the thread, for the abridged version that answers the question of the initial post:

ONLY READ NORMAN'S POSTS IN THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!


and the answer is.... nobody knows.

but at least we got the question clarified

Uh NO! The answer is simply it was passed down 3 generations. The secondary question of what was the ORIGIN (grandfather or possibly great grandfather, or even older) is pretty much arbitrary relative to importance of inhereted nicknames in flamenco in general.

Morao is purple, tomate is tomato, habichuelas are beans. Doesn't mean some guy's favorite color is purple, one sells loves or throws tomatoes, or the other only eats beans. THis is FLAMENCO!!! HELLO!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 12 2012 22:10:59
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo) 
...but Sabicas himself said he got his nickname because as a kid he loved "sabas" [habas]=broad beans. Carried them around in his pockets. So all flamenco nicknames have to mean something, and there has to be a cool story about them. It's just up to the ethno-musico-nicknamers to discover the stories!

While in Spain this past June, I ordered habas con jamon several times in honor of Sabicas. I also ate berenjanas, but their purpleness imparted no insight into the nomenclature of los Moraos.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2012 2:17:43
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Richard Jernigan) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

...but Sabicas himself said he got his nickname because as a kid he loved "sabas" [habas]=broad beans. Carried them around in his pockets. So all flamenco nicknames have to mean something, and there has to be a cool story about them. It's just up to the ethno-musico-nicknamers to discover the stories!

While in Spain this past June, I ordered habas con jamon several times in honor of Sabicas. I also ate berenjanas, but their purpleness imparted no insight into the nomenclature of los Moraos.

RNJ


But if Sabicas had a guitar playing grandson named "Sabaito hijo", the important thing is his name got passed down....he is not required to carry jumping beans to every gig. Terremoto is another good one...I always though cuz of his tremendous voice, or maybe he got over weight and dance super heavy duty . But the truth was he said as a little kid he used to vandalize public and private property! Anyway, it's a no brainer why his SON took on the same name.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2012 13:35:30
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

THis is FLAMENCO!!! HELLO!!!


you think people get nickname's for no reason? what, you really think the elders put random words in a hat and when a new artist is born they pick one out?

Paco got his name after his mother

the origin of Sabicas's sobriquet is well documented (here by Richard, thank you),

Camarón got his name when his uncle José nicknamed him Camarón (Spanish for "Shrimp") because he was blonde and fair skinned.

Tomatito inherited his name, but I think I did hear something about how his Grandfather came to be "El Tomate", I will have to see if I can remember/find the reference.

Moraíto inherited his too, I thought that was obvious/common knowledge from Juan and/or Manuel Morao, but didn't realise, as Norman explained, that they in turn had inherited the Morao name (thank you Norman). If the family don't know why the first Morao got the name, I think it's fairly safe to assume that, as I said, "nobody knows"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2012 15:50:29
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Ricardo) 
This isn't where I heard about the derivation of Tomatito's name before, but just found this in an article about Spanish naming customs;

"Sometimes the artistic name consists of the home town appended to the first name (Manolo Sanlúcar, Ramón de Algeciras); but many, perhaps most, of such names are more eccentric: Pepe de la Matrona (because his mother was a midwife); Perico del Lunar (because he had a mole); Tomatito (son of a father known as Tomate (tomato) because of his red face); Sabicas (because of his childhood passion for green beans, from niño de las habicas); and many more."

EDIT:
quote:

Tomatito (son of a father known as Tomate (tomato) because of his red face);

I think they got that a bit wrong, as Tomatito says (in Encuentro interview) that it the name came originally not from his dad El Tomate but from his grandad Miguel Tomate.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2012 15:55:48
 
veet

 

Posts: 231
Joined: Nov. 29 2004
From: L.A.

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to Escribano) 
I read somewhere -wish I could remember the source- that the original Morao (his grandfather?) had a purple birthmark.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 13 2012 18:43:11
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to veet) 
quote:

I read somewhere -wish I could remember the source- that the original Morao (his grandfather?) had a purple birthmark.


I was thinking the same thing, but suspected myself of having "invented" the memory!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2012 8:52:32
 
tele

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RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mark indigo) 
Didn't want to start an own thread but is Manuel Moreno still alive? I found on the web that he was born on 1929, but no mention of death.
I have always thought that moraito comes from word moreno.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2014 0:09:18
 
beltri

 

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RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to NormanKliman) 
Manuel Moreno sigue en este mundo y Dios lo guarde muchos años. Moreno y Morao para nada van de la mano porque tienen significados distintos... moreno lo podéis traducir como bruno o castaño y morao (morado) como lila (purple). En Andalucía se dice que alguien está "morao" cuando se ha atiborrado de algo , como comida o bebida normalmente , es una similitud con el color lila que puede coger la piel de una persona cuando no puede más comer o beber. Espero habéis explicado bien
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2014 13:48:16
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3431
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Manuel Morao 'Moraíto' - origin... (in reply to mezzo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: mezzo

quote:

No its not a diminutive , maybe I dont explain well , ..Curro and pepe are not diminutives , just alternate names for Fransisco ...

Sorry kiko I'm still confused about your reasoning
I'm not able to determine in what way you associated Morao and Moreno in your mind.

Curro Dulce - (Curro's alternative for Francisco)
or
Rafael Romero "el Gallina" - (Gallina's alternative for Romero) or Gallina is something else. El gallinito could be his son's name.


I recollect that Rafael Romero's mother's nickname was La Gallina, thus Rafael's name would be the usual Gitano contraction of "El de la Gallina."

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2014 16:42:23
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