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RE: Navarro Conde!
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estebanana
Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Navarro Conde! (in reply to Alonte)
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quote:
I am lutherie illiterate but anyway, so in the classical/flamenco lutherie world there are no intellectual property issues rights on copying headstock design? I've so far not heard of anyone being approached by Conde over the use of the headstock design. Fender will send you a "nastygram" as they are called in the biz. They send a cease and desist letter if they think your headstock design is too close to a Fender design. Classical guitars seem to be treated more like the way bench copies are treated in the violin world. It's ok to make violins and guitars along the lines of famous historical makers designs as long as it is declared up front as a bench copy. However today if you began making Ramirez or Conde head stock guitars on a large commercial scale by contracting them I bet they would get mad if you were mass producing them and attaching the Ramirez name to them. There seems to be some wiggle room for making copies of flamenco /classical guitars or even martin designs, you just can't call them Martins. In the case of some builders who have scaled their output to include Fleta, Hauser, Torres models etc, who would sue them? If family of one of those makers decided to take up a case against a maker doing that it would depend on the copyright laws of both countries where the family lived and copies were being made to determine what can be done. I don't know this for fact, but I would speculate that anyone making copies on a large scale has contacted those families and secured an agreement to profit from working at a large scale. In the case of individual luthiers making classical or flamenco guitars it is considered a rite of passage to pick a maker and learn that design. Usually there is no problem with this. If that luthier markets that copy heavily there is no hard and fast line of what is acceptable ethically, but it can look bad if that luthier is doing it excessively without the knowledge or blessing of the orginal maker if that maker is alive and working. Many people make Smallman models, some of those guys have been in contact with him directly and he seems ok with people making his style. Again if someone made 10 or 50 of them as an individual luthier that is different than making hundreds by mass production. So it is an interesting question without definite answers, except what your own conscience and taste allow you to work with. That applies to both makers and buyers. Or put this way if Torres had been Bill Gates, the seven fan system would have been copy righted or patented. Too late now.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jul. 17 2012 22:57:27
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Kalo
Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
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RE: Navarro Conde! (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Kalo, you should call up Monte or Gaetano and see if they have any Paracho guitars for sale. They used to buy them by the handful and sell the ones they didn't personally want. That way, you could try them out. I had a Navarro negra that was quite comfortable to play. Hey Miguel!!!! I am going to say YOU ARE RIGHT!!! I should of gone to Monte or Gaetano!!! But here is the thing...I already had a Student Navarro Flamenco guitar TWO years ago and really liked it... The Seller's price was right on the guitar, and that is why I never thought of contacting either one!!! I really didn't the this DeQervain's (thumb) was going to make this Navarro uncomfortable to play... I am BUMMED that this all happened, but, I am not going to dwell on it... Packing it up was no joy ride either, but, oh, well.... I packed it well and PRAY it gets there safely!!! I put insurance on it and did OVERNIGHT!!!! If the Seller lists this guitar back on Ebay, it seriously is a NICE guitar and I will say better in terms of craftmanship then a Student Flamenco I had TWO years ago. Soundwise, it had a lot of midrange and terrible to it!!! Who knows how it would of really sound once broken in and aged...But, I was impressed... Did it sound like a Conde??? Heck, if I know, I never played one! If anyone is interested and has regular size hands with no tendon problems it is a GREAT guitar to have... Kalo
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Date Jul. 17 2012 23:05:29
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Navarro Conde! (in reply to Kalo)
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quote:
Basically what he is saying about the finger board i.e. it is better to have a radius is interesting.. Because on thing I noticed about the navarro is the fretboard was flat which made my hand hurt when bar chording... I have never seen a "radiused" fretboard on a flamenco. My question to luthiers is: Wouldn't a "radiused" fretboard also require the same degree of "radius," or curvature, on the top of the nut and the saddle bone, in order for all six strings to maintain the appropriate heighth all along the fretboard? It would seem to require that all the inserted frets be similarly "radiused" as well, no? I think one can avoid the left hand hurting during bar chording on a flat fretboard by just trying out different positions involving the index finger and wrist until you find one that is comfortable. Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 18 2012 1:14:23
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Kalo
Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
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RE: Navarro Conde! (in reply to estebanana)
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Hey Shawn, I am so bummed about the guitar thing not working out as well. I am really scared now to have something built! I don't know if I am allowed to say this on the forum, but, I was just told that I will be charged a re stocking fee, plus, if the guitar doesn't get there in once piece, NO REFUND!!! I don't mean to cause trouble or stir up things, it's just that I am a little nervous, plus hurt because I wanted to play on something I thought was going to be cool and help me at least advanced until, what I really wanted... Now, I am so scared to even order from a reputalble builder because "what if"! On your fingers, it could just be from over play... I seriously, don't know how I got DeQuerVains...It sucks because now I really have to watch. It depresses me because TWO years ago, I have a video I wasn't like this... Oh, well... Kalo
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Date Jul. 18 2012 1:54:08
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Kalo
Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
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RE: Navarro Conde! (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Did they tell you ahead of time about the restocking fee? How much it is may I ask? If not you should ask them to give you a full refund. Hey Estebanana, Yeah, he told me that there was a stocking fee, however, I chances it because I had already owned a student model in the past. I NEVER thought I was going to return it...Not really his fault, but mine...Still it sucks.. The Seller charged me 15 percent stocking fee. quote:
You should try to find place where you can play the guitars first. And many good dealers have under 1000.00 guitars and you won't have to deal with them on eBay. They will talk to you on the phone and be personal. Estebanna, where do I find places to go that sale flamenco guitars for me to try. I live in Arizona and there is a place in Tucson called Zavaleta! Most of their guitars start in the $2,500.00 range I would try Guitar Center and Sam Ash, but, I've heard Cordoba's are horrible...I was even going to try the GK Studio Cordoba, but, again, I've heard bad things about that guitar... Thanks for your advise, Kalo
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Date Jul. 18 2012 3:13:49
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3026
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: Navarro Conde! (in reply to estebanana)
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Kalo, Sorry to hear about your experiences with that Navarro. A lot of subtle factors go into how a guitar feels in your hands. Fret height, fingerboard, neck, string spacing, pulsation, action etc. etc. It is true that nylon string guitars are generally built with no radius in the fretboard. Usually a dead flat fingerboard feels fine, however, it is possible for the fingerboard to cup slightly if the ebony was not well seasoned or the humidity changes a lot. That's a bad situation and can make it feel very uncomfortable on the left hand. I don't know if that's what happened with this guitar and it could be something as simple as lower frets than you're used to. I actually put the slightest possible "radius" on my fingerboards just to prevent that cupping from ever happening. Just a couple extra passes with the scraper on either side of the board. Anyway good luck...
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Andy Culpepper, luthier http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date Jul. 18 2012 3:14:04
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Kalo
Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
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RE: Navarro Conde! (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Kalo, Sorry to hear about your experiences with that Navarro. A lot of subtle factors go into how a guitar feels in your hands. Fret height, fingerboard, neck, string spacing, pulsation, action etc. etc. It is true that nylon string guitars are generally built with no radius in the fretboard. Usually a dead flat fingerboard feels fine, however, it is possible for the fingerboard to cup slightly if the ebony was not well seasoned or the humidity changes a lot. That's a bad situation and can make it feel very uncomfortable on the left hand. I don't know if that's what happened with this guitar and it could be something as simple as lower frets than you're used to. I actually put the slightest possible "radius" on my fingerboards just to prevent that cupping from ever happening. Just a couple extra passes with the scraper on either side of the board. Anyway good luck... I knew I should of just SAVED money and at least talk with you some more before I got that CONDE Navarro I know Navarro has a great reptuation, but, I wonder how he is able to make all those guitars. I am not saying they are massed produced, but, I am sure he doesn't take the time to do what you do to your guitars. Grant it, yes, my hand is messed up and the last Navarro I had was AWESOME, but, then again, I didn't have this problem with my left hand. Thanks Andy! quote:
http://www.acousticvibesmusic.com/ Tempe, near Southern and the 101. I played a few guitars in the $1500 or so range there, but most are higher. Hey Miguel, thanks for the info! Ugh, lots of those guitars are way out of my price league right now. Have you ever went to Zavaleta's in Tucson?? They are pricey, but, they bring all the big name flamenco guitars. I've never been and again for now waaaaay out of my price league.. I guess I'll just stick with the takamine CP132 SC. At least that guitar kept me out of trouble, LOL!!! Kalo
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Date Jul. 18 2012 4:59:41
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Kalo
Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
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RE: Navarro Conde! (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
I have not been to Zavaleta's. If you can put together $3-5K, it would probably be worth it to go and look--why not. Same with acousticvibes. It is worth your while to educate yourself as to what you like and need. Surely you know that there is no holy grail or perfect guitar out there. There is nothing wrong with going to Guitar Center and playing all the Cordobas as part of your education. LOL, I don't know if I would EVER be able to afford a $3-5K guitar, LOL, but, you are right it doesn't hurt to have a look and see what is out there... At accoustivibes, seem to have midrange alhambra's, Tomatito's guitar and Jose Ramirez...Even though those might be out of price range, well, at least the ones that go for 2K and up, still I can try them out....See what they feel like... Andy, yes, playing a few Cordobra's at Guitar Center could't hurt either Thanks, Kalo
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Date Jul. 18 2012 5:25:43
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Navarro Conde! (in reply to Kalo)
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quote:
LOL, I don't know if I would EVER be able to afford a $3-5K guitar, LOL, but, you are right it doesn't hurt to have a look and see what is out there... Kalo, I highly recommend you (and Miguel de Maria, too, since you are both in Phoenix) make a run to Zavaleta's in Tucson. You may not be able to afford one of his guitars now, but if you make an appointment with the owner, James Greenberg, I'm sure he would be glad to show you his stock. He also has some real vintage guitars, including (when I was there he let me play it) a 1923 Santos Hernandez. If nothing else, it is fun to browse around and look at his guitars. In 2009, I visited Zavaleta's and went out to dinner with James Greenberg and his wife (who is originally from Mexico). They were great company, and I spent a lot of time in his emporium. I bought a Manuel Adalid Viviana blanca from James for $2,500. Manuel Adalid is the chief luthier at the House of Esteve in Spain, but he makes the Viviana under his own name. I can say that it is the best sounding flamenco I have come across in that price range. Muy flamenco! Again, even if you don't buy anything, it makes for a very interesting day trip. And you can always go into Tucson for a great frozen Margarita afterwards! Cheers, Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jul. 18 2012 6:10:56
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