RE: Navarro Conde!

RE: Navarro Conde! (Full Version)

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estebanana -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 5:44:34)
Maybe you should ice your hand a little and work up to playing two hours at a stretch. Playing that much you can really injure yourself if you are not ready for it. Take care of that hand.

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 5:48:56)
quote: Maybe you should ice your hand a little and work up to playing two hours at a stretch. Playing that much you can really injure yourself if you are not ready for it. Take care of that hand. Thanks Estebanana, for the reply! The funny thing is I can play my nylon Takamine Cp132C for hours.... I forgot to mention that this guitar is FLAWLESS!!! No cosmetic defect... I must be nuts... I am afraid if I keep and still have pain, I will "eat crow" and loose my money... I think I have three days, but, I am scared to keep it that long... My hands are small and skinny as well [:o] Kalo

estebanana -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 6:13:37)
Sometimes the Takamine guitars are soft. It often takes a few weeks to acclimate to a new guitar. One thing you can do is play on it less and start with the cejilla on the fifth fret. Every few days move it down one fret until you are playing on the first fret and hold it there for a week or so then play in open position. Play slowly and without tensing up. Let your playing breathe and your compas breathe. Don't injure yourself over and over. Repeat injuries are much harder to heal. Flawless cosmetic guitars ain't no big deal. I don't consider one of my guitars to be completely born until the new owner scratches it. ( YOU ASS you've scratched my CHILD! ) Oh well.

keith -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 12:59:20)
Kalo--OK, I am going to give it to you straight up without any hokum. SHOES! When one buys new shoes they often times will hurt until the leather breaks in. The smart shoe wearer will not throw away his old shoes when he or she buys new ones but will rotate the new shoes into the line up and when the new shoes become more comfortable out go the old shoes. You might want to use this technique with your new guitar. True the neck will not "break in" but you hand will become more adjusted to a new neck shape (I suspect this is the issue with your thumb). Think of the new guitar as a new exercise and ease into the new shape. It may turn out the shape of the neck is beyond your comfort level and you will have to sell it. Likewise, your hand may adjust and you will no longer have problems. Also, one can buy nuts with different string spacing--go to the bay and you can find 52mm nuts with a range of 40-43mm between low and high E--you can get the pre-cut TUSQ nuts fairly inexpensively and since the nut is not super important in sound production (as compared to the saddle) getting it pre-cut (that is, slotted) is the way to go.

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 14:01:18)
Thanks Estebanna, but what if I don't get used to it. Then Ebay here we come! I have a THREE day trial period and I don't know if I will be able to get used to it by then... Keith, I totally understand your concept, but, I've bought shoes that even after breaking in didn't feel good [:o] I was under the impression that once a 52 mm nut installed that one can't replace it with a smaller nut cause of the slots cut in the guitar? Does that make sense.. I also think that the neck shape is also the problem.. Bottom line I am afraid to keep it and then "eat crow" because after a month it still doesn't feel right.. Maybe, I am not cut out to play flamenco guitar.. My hands are SMALL and thin...My hand strength isn't like a mans...No matter how much I practice.. I believe in building strength, but, I also realize that one can only built so much strength.... I guess not everyone is cut out to play a nylon flamenco guitar... Kalo

keith -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 15:17:18)
Kalo--the string spacing can have variance--the nut width no so much unless one puts a 48mm wide nut on a 52mm guitar--it would goofy. if you are not happy and you have a 3 day grace period then i would recommend one of two things. 1. send it back and go for another guitar with a smaller scale and smaller nut width. they do make them. 2. print up a bogus conde label, get some e-bay "fustero" tuners and try to unload it as a top notch conde and make tons of money. hey, i can then post about a bogus conde at the bay....just kidding here. to be honest, if you are having difficulty with the size then look into getting a smaller more manageable guitar. it is not something to be embarrassed about as a lot of guys are going to 640mm scale guitars.

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 16:04:08)
quote: Kalo--the string spacing can have variance--the nut width no so much unless one puts a 48mm wide nut on a 52mm guitar--it would goofy. if you are not happy and you have a 3 day grace period then i would recommend one of two things. 1. send it back and go for another guitar with a smaller scale and smaller nut width. they do make them. 2. print up a bogus conde label, get some e-bay "fustero" tuners and try to unload it as a top notch conde and make tons of money. hey, i can then post about a bogus conde at the bay....just kidding here. to be honest, if you are having difficulty with the size then look into getting a smaller more manageable guitar. it is not something to be embarrassed about as a lot of guys are going to 640mm scale guitars. Keith, I like the #2 idea the best[:D][8D] You know I am not sure if the small scale is my problem. I don't really have any problems with reach. I think because I developed this DeQuervain's 6 months ago, I am going to have to really go with a small nut and stuff. Some how the Navarro neck felt FLAT and wide!!!! The strings felt stiff and I am not talking about NEW string feel either.. The sucky part to all of this is I had my luthier adjust the bridge and nut to lower! The action was high and he explained that the bridge slot had no more room for him to come down lower... The question is...Who is going to be able to built me a guitar for my small/thin fingers?? The other question is "what if" the specs. I give that builders still doesn't work for me? Is that builder stuck with a CUSTOM he can't sell??? I just want to thank all of you for all the great advise!!!! Thanks Kalo

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 22:11:34)
Kalo, you should call up Monte or Gaetano and see if they have any Paracho guitars for sale. They used to buy them by the handful and sell the ones they didn't personally want. That way, you could try them out. I had a Navarro negra that was quite comfortable to play.

Alonte -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 22:30:54)
Interesting read what have become of this thread so... Apologies in advance but I am lutherie illiterate but anyway, so in the classical/flamenco lutherie world there are no intellectual property issues rights on copying headstock design? And the conde media luna is a modern design isnt it?and it is very very much associated with conde guitars only no? I may not even be explaining my question properly but say i know that a lot of people can get in trouble by making a guitar with a Gibson or Fender headstock.

estebanana -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 22:57:27)
quote: I am lutherie illiterate but anyway, so in the classical/flamenco lutherie world there are no intellectual property issues rights on copying headstock design? I've so far not heard of anyone being approached by Conde over the use of the headstock design. Fender will send you a "nastygram" as they are called in the biz. They send a cease and desist letter if they think your headstock design is too close to a Fender design. Classical guitars seem to be treated more like the way bench copies are treated in the violin world. It's ok to make violins and guitars along the lines of famous historical makers designs as long as it is declared up front as a bench copy. However today if you began making Ramirez or Conde head stock guitars on a large commercial scale by contracting them I bet they would get mad if you were mass producing them and attaching the Ramirez name to them. There seems to be some wiggle room for making copies of flamenco /classical guitars or even martin designs, you just can't call them Martins. In the case of some builders who have scaled their output to include Fleta, Hauser, Torres models etc, who would sue them? If family of one of those makers decided to take up a case against a maker doing that it would depend on the copyright laws of both countries where the family lived and copies were being made to determine what can be done. I don't know this for fact, but I would speculate that anyone making copies on a large scale has contacted those families and secured an agreement to profit from working at a large scale. In the case of individual luthiers making classical or flamenco guitars it is considered a rite of passage to pick a maker and learn that design. Usually there is no problem with this. If that luthier markets that copy heavily there is no hard and fast line of what is acceptable ethically, but it can look bad if that luthier is doing it excessively without the knowledge or blessing of the orginal maker if that maker is alive and working. Many people make Smallman models, some of those guys have been in contact with him directly and he seems ok with people making his style. Again if someone made 10 or 50 of them as an individual luthier that is different than making hundreds by mass production. So it is an interesting question without definite answers, except what your own conscience and taste allow you to work with. That applies to both makers and buyers. Or put this way if Torres had been Bill Gates, the seven fan system would have been copy righted or patented. Too late now.

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 17 2012 23:05:29)
quote: Kalo, you should call up Monte or Gaetano and see if they have any Paracho guitars for sale. They used to buy them by the handful and sell the ones they didn't personally want. That way, you could try them out. I had a Navarro negra that was quite comfortable to play. Hey Miguel!!!! I am going to say YOU ARE RIGHT!!! I should of gone to Monte or Gaetano!!! But here is the thing...I already had a Student Navarro Flamenco guitar TWO years ago and really liked it... The Seller's price was right on the guitar, and that is why I never thought of contacting either one!!! I really didn't the this DeQervain's (thumb) was going to make this Navarro uncomfortable to play... I am BUMMED that this all happened, but, I am not going to dwell on it... Packing it up was no joy ride either, but, oh, well.... I packed it well and PRAY it gets there safely!!! I put insurance on it and did OVERNIGHT!!!! If the Seller lists this guitar back on Ebay, it seriously is a NICE guitar and I will say better in terms of craftmanship then a Student Flamenco I had TWO years ago. Soundwise, it had a lot of midrange and terrible to it!!! Who knows how it would of really sound once broken in and aged...But, I was impressed... Did it sound like a Conde??? Heck, if I know, I never played one! If anyone is interested and has regular size hands with no tendon problems it is a GREAT guitar to have... Kalo

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 0:37:19)
Okay, since this thread is kind of going strong.. If know one post on this I might just repost as I found this website article interesting.. It talks about the radius of the neck and this dude is an expert in making short scale flamenco and classical guitars..Check it out http://www.mangore.com/choosing-the-strings-for-your-guitar.html Basically what he is saying about the finger board i.e. it is better to have a radius is interesting.. Because on thing I noticed about the navarro is the fretboard was flat which made my hand hurt when bar chording... Kalo

BarkellWH -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 1:14:23)
quote: Basically what he is saying about the finger board i.e. it is better to have a radius is interesting.. Because on thing I noticed about the navarro is the fretboard was flat which made my hand hurt when bar chording... I have never seen a "radiused" fretboard on a flamenco. My question to luthiers is: Wouldn't a "radiused" fretboard also require the same degree of "radius," or curvature, on the top of the nut and the saddle bone, in order for all six strings to maintain the appropriate heighth all along the fretboard? It would seem to require that all the inserted frets be similarly "radiused" as well, no? I think one can avoid the left hand hurting during bar chording on a flat fretboard by just trying out different positions involving the index finger and wrist until you find one that is comfortable. Cheers, Bill

keith -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 1:16:41)
Kalo--avoid Bellucci guitars at all costs. There are boatloads of posts here,at guitar salon international and acguitar and there are so many negatives posted (except for belluci ringers). Long story short, his guitars do not seem to be that good and the customer service has often been reported at bad. Another reason to avoid Bellucci are his "standard" tuners. They go for $140 and are not identified as Rubners yet they cost $20 at the bay. They are Rubner clones. Deal with him and you will be mangored. As to radius, short scale, narrow nuts--I am sure there are luthiers here who can help you with these concepts. A slight radius does seem to be benefical to barre chords from what I hear.

Shawn Brock -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 1:20:01)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kalo Because on thing I noticed about the navarro is the fretboard was flat which made my hand hurt when bar chording... Kalo Everyone seems to feel differently about radius fretboards. I have had them on several styles of guitars and mandolins. In the end I didn't like them. This may have been because I spent so many years playing on flat fretboards. I'm not saying that a radius board had a bad affect on my playing, but it didn't seem to help my left hand feel more comfortable. You must consider the possibility that the problem was that the back of the neck is flat, and that was the cause of discomfort and not the fretboard. My Castillo blanca has a flat somewhat fat neck and I like the way it plays. My Castillo negra has a more rounded C shaped neck which is thinner, and I like the way it plays... But some times when I pick the negra up I wish that the neck was a little thicker... Once I got used to flat necks when I first started playing classical, I came to like them. I will admit that I am having some problems with a few fingers on my left hand, and I don't know how that will play out over the years. Even though I'm just 31 I have the classic signs of arthritis in my left hand. That's what playing as much as 8 hours a day will do for you after a while. All of those good paying Nashville sessions have come back to take a toll on me... Sorry the guitar didn't work out. That's always disappointing. I'm kind of getting the feeling that you didn't like the sound a lot anyhow...

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 1:54:08)
Hey Shawn, I am so bummed about the guitar thing not working out as well. I am really scared now to have something built! I don't know if I am allowed to say this on the forum, but, I was just told that I will be charged a re stocking fee, plus, if the guitar doesn't get there in once piece, NO REFUND!!! I don't mean to cause trouble or stir up things, it's just that I am a little nervous, plus hurt because I wanted to play on something I thought was going to be cool and help me at least advanced until, what I really wanted... Now, I am so scared to even order from a reputalble builder because "what if"! On your fingers, it could just be from over play... I seriously, don't know how I got DeQuerVains...It sucks because now I really have to watch. [:o] It depresses me because TWO years ago, I have a video I wasn't like this... Oh, well... Kalo

estebanana -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 2:45:34)
quote: I don't know if I am allowed to say this on the forum, but, I was just told that I will be charged a re stocking fee, plus, if the guitar doesn't get there in once piece, NO REFUND!!! Did they tell you ahead of time about the restocking fee? How much it is may I ask? If not you should ask them to give you a full refund.

estebanana -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 2:47:53)
quote: Now, I am so scared to even order from a reputalble builder because "what if"! You should try to find place where you can play the guitars first. And many good dealers have under 1000.00 guitars and you won't have to deal with them on eBay. They will talk to you on the phone and be personal.

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 3:13:49)
quote: Did they tell you ahead of time about the restocking fee? How much it is may I ask? If not you should ask them to give you a full refund. Hey Estebanana, Yeah, he told me that there was a stocking fee, however, I chances it because I had already owned a student model in the past. I NEVER thought I was going to return it...Not really his fault, but mine...Still it sucks.. The Seller charged me 15 percent stocking fee. quote: You should try to find place where you can play the guitars first. And many good dealers have under 1000.00 guitars and you won't have to deal with them on eBay. They will talk to you on the phone and be personal. Estebanna, where do I find places to go that sale flamenco guitars for me to try. I live in Arizona and there is a place in Tucson called Zavaleta! Most of their guitars start in the $2,500.00 range [:o] I would try Guitar Center and Sam Ash, but, I've heard Cordoba's are horrible...I was even going to try the GK Studio Cordoba, but, again, I've heard bad things about that guitar... Thanks for your advise, Kalo

Andy Culpepper -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 3:14:04)
Kalo, Sorry to hear about your experiences with that Navarro. A lot of subtle factors go into how a guitar feels in your hands. Fret height, fingerboard, neck, string spacing, pulsation, action etc. etc. It is true that nylon string guitars are generally built with no radius in the fretboard. Usually a dead flat fingerboard feels fine, however, it is possible for the fingerboard to cup slightly if the ebony was not well seasoned or the humidity changes a lot. That's a bad situation and can make it feel very uncomfortable on the left hand. I don't know if that's what happened with this guitar and it could be something as simple as lower frets than you're used to. I actually put the slightest possible "radius" on my fingerboards just to prevent that cupping from ever happening. Just a couple extra passes with the scraper on either side of the board. Anyway good luck...

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 3:53:11)
http://www.acousticvibesmusic.com/ Tempe, near Southern and the 101. I played a few guitars in the $1500 or so range there, but most are higher.

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 4:59:41)
quote: Kalo, Sorry to hear about your experiences with that Navarro. A lot of subtle factors go into how a guitar feels in your hands. Fret height, fingerboard, neck, string spacing, pulsation, action etc. etc. It is true that nylon string guitars are generally built with no radius in the fretboard. Usually a dead flat fingerboard feels fine, however, it is possible for the fingerboard to cup slightly if the ebony was not well seasoned or the humidity changes a lot. That's a bad situation and can make it feel very uncomfortable on the left hand. I don't know if that's what happened with this guitar and it could be something as simple as lower frets than you're used to. I actually put the slightest possible "radius" on my fingerboards just to prevent that cupping from ever happening. Just a couple extra passes with the scraper on either side of the board. Anyway good luck... I knew I should of just SAVED money and at least talk with you some more before I got that CONDE Navarro [:D] I know Navarro has a great reptuation, but, I wonder how he is able to make all those guitars. I am not saying they are massed produced, but, I am sure he doesn't take the time to do what you do to your guitars. Grant it, yes, my hand is messed up and the last Navarro I had was AWESOME, but, then again, I didn't have this problem with my left hand. Thanks Andy! quote: http://www.acousticvibesmusic.com/ Tempe, near Southern and the 101. I played a few guitars in the $1500 or so range there, but most are higher. Hey Miguel, thanks for the info! Ugh, lots of those guitars are way out of my price league right now. Have you ever went to Zavaleta's in Tucson?? They are pricey, but, they bring all the big name flamenco guitars. I've never been and again for now waaaaay out of my price league.. I guess I'll just stick with the takamine CP132 SC. At least that guitar kept me out of trouble, LOL!!! Kalo

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 5:12:14)
I have not been to Zavaleta's. If you can put together $3-5K, it would probably be worth it to go and look--why not. Same with acousticvibes. It is worth your while to educate yourself as to what you like and need. Surely you know that there is no holy grail or perfect guitar out there. There is nothing wrong with going to Guitar Center and playing all the Cordobas as part of your education. Another thing to consider, if you are having problems with your hand, is one of the crossover guitars. They have steel-string sized fingerboards and are easier on stretches.

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 5:25:43)
quote: I have not been to Zavaleta's. If you can put together $3-5K, it would probably be worth it to go and look--why not. Same with acousticvibes. It is worth your while to educate yourself as to what you like and need. Surely you know that there is no holy grail or perfect guitar out there. There is nothing wrong with going to Guitar Center and playing all the Cordobas as part of your education. LOL, I don't know if I would EVER be able to afford a $3-5K guitar, LOL, but, you are right it doesn't hurt to have a look and see what is out there... At accoustivibes, seem to have midrange alhambra's, Tomatito's guitar and Jose Ramirez...Even though those might be out of price range, well, at least the ones that go for 2K and up, still I can try them out....See what they feel like... Andy, yes, playing a few Cordobra's at Guitar Center could't hurt either [;)] Thanks, Kalo

BarkellWH -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 6:10:56)
quote: LOL, I don't know if I would EVER be able to afford a $3-5K guitar, LOL, but, you are right it doesn't hurt to have a look and see what is out there... Kalo, I highly recommend you (and Miguel de Maria, too, since you are both in Phoenix) make a run to Zavaleta's in Tucson. You may not be able to afford one of his guitars now, but if you make an appointment with the owner, James Greenberg, I'm sure he would be glad to show you his stock. He also has some real vintage guitars, including (when I was there he let me play it) a 1923 Santos Hernandez. If nothing else, it is fun to browse around and look at his guitars. In 2009, I visited Zavaleta's and went out to dinner with James Greenberg and his wife (who is originally from Mexico). They were great company, and I spent a lot of time in his emporium. I bought a Manuel Adalid Viviana blanca from James for $2,500. Manuel Adalid is the chief luthier at the House of Esteve in Spain, but he makes the Viviana under his own name. I can say that it is the best sounding flamenco I have come across in that price range. Muy flamenco! Again, even if you don't buy anything, it makes for a very interesting day trip. And you can always go into Tucson for a great frozen Margarita afterwards! Cheers, Bill

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 15:48:13)
I had plans to go out there and see Dr. Greenberg and then David Russell! But then I realized I had to use my "get out of jail free" pass to see Paco instead :)

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 15:48:26)
Wow, Bill! It looks like you had a GREAT time at Zavaleta!!! I can't imagine a 1923 Santos Hernandez guitar! "I am not worthy to play" [;)] I think maybe in a couple of weeks for FUN, NO MORE SPENDING on guitars, I will take a drive down with a friend who also loves Flamenco Guitar! And, for sure a nice Margarita afterwards [:D] Thanks, Kalo

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 15:51:02)
quote: quote: I had plans to go out there and see Dr. Greenberg and then David Russell! But then I realized I had to use my "get out of jail free" pass to see Paco instead :) Those are TWO tough choice to make Miguel, but, in the end I think you made the right one! Seeing Paco was like a religious experience! I am sure going Zavaleta and checking out those vintage guitars must be like heaven though [:D] Kalo

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 16:32:50)
UPDATE: Well the Conde Flamenco ARRIVED safely and I received my refund minus the stocking fee...I am not complaining I suspect that the Seller will probably list it on Ebay again.. Seriously, don't go by me. I am chick with SMALL, skinny hands... It is a NICE guitar and the sounded pretty nice!!! If it wasn't for my left Thumb Tendonitis, I would of kept it!!! The orange finish is wasn't as bad as I thought...It really does look like Conde... So, if it is up for bids and anyone has questions and you are thinking of buying it... Let me know if I can help you with your decision.. My only suggestion is IF you don't like it, YOU will be charged a 15 percent re stocking fee.. Kalo

Kalo -> RE: Navarro Conde! (Jul. 18 2012 21:16:43)
"Let the Bidding Begin"[:D] All I can say his starting bid is higher than what I paid! And, yes, it is the same Navarro Conde.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Conde-Hermanos-Style-Flamenco-Blanca-Guitar-Custom-Built-by-Francisco-Navarro-/350581953600?pt=Guitar&hash=item51a0501440 He received the guitar this morning and it's already up on ebay... Well, it's out of my hands and hopefully someone will like.. Kalo

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